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vetrider
Hi, what powders do you reccommend for a 308 M1a national match?
I want to make some good match ammo.

Martin Janczak
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8 comments

Date Votes
  • vetrider
    what is the differnce between imr4831 and hodgson h4831. are they similar or what. looking to use the h4831 for 30-06 150 gr. ballistic tips. my lee book has the two listed consecutive in the burning rate. are the weights similar? or is one powder heavier? any help would be appreciated
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  • JustC
    The burn rate it what is significant,..weight is just weight. They have similar burn rates,..that is why they are both given the designation of 4831. You can use the same data for either,..but as always it is best to back off on the charges and work up through the recipe.

    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
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  • I.Shute
    JustC - Not the same.
    IMR 4831 is faster than H 4831. It is important that IMR 4831 not be used in charge weights recommended for H 4831. This from The Speer manuals, as well as others.
    Usually use about 2 or 3% less IMR than Hodgdon.

    In Hodgdon 25th edition in rating 53 powders from Bullseye to H-870 IMR 4831 is # 49 and H 4831 is # 51.
    Speer # 13 manual says "IMR 4831 is quicker than Hodgdon 4831 AND MUST NOT BE SUBSTITUTED FOR IT". (In italics).
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  • Iconoclast
    As I.Shute noted, "H" and "IMR" series of stick rifle powders are similar, but **NOT** identical. Hodgdon got its start by selling surplus government powder. The IMR series was developed from service contracts, but is not the same as that provided to the government. Same is true of Winchester ball powders - Ball C for commercial sales and contract is not identical. Ditto Hercules (now Alliant) Bullseye used in .45 ACP rounds . . . etc., etc., etc.

    vetrider, the difference is burn rates as JustC noted and burn rates vary. Heck, they can even vary slightly from lot to lot within the same powder. I've known precision shooters who bought *large* stocks of their favorite powder, developed the load and then repeated the process when they ran out - all to remove any slight variation in burning rate. That kind of detail is less important today than it was in the past, but I'd bet there are 1,000 yard shooters out there still chanting this mantra. The bottom line is that "close" in handloading can easily mean "close to trouble!"
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  • vetrider
    iconolast, are you saying that the powders can vary in burn rates from batch to batch, like, there is a possibility that both imr 4831 and h4831 could possibly have the same burn rates? i'm new at this reloading game and keep finding out more stuff every time i turn around. this is just way too interesting, i should have got into this years ago.
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  • old06
    Vetrider there is a ton of info on the net just type in handloading or reloading and get set to read been doing it for over 30 years and still learning and dont use the same data on 4831 of any mfg to another there ate similar numbers throught the power spectrum 4064, 4350, the list goes on please be careful and work your slow. but be preparied to read. good luck and I know you'll enjoy

    psalms 16
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  • JustC
    Iconoclast is one to be reconed with my friend,..his experience with powders is vast!! YES he means they vary between lots. ALL powders can vary between lots,..hence the benchrest crowd i.e. (me) will buy in 8lb jugs to get the same performance for the barrels life expecectancy. RL22 is famous for variance,...

    The birn rate of any lot is original unto itself,..many powders will remain very consistent,..BUT when opening a new pound,..the best bet is to start LOWER than your last accuracy load,...and work up.

    The companies put out these burn rate charts based on a study of ONE batch of powders that they test,..which leaves a large margin of error (something I forgot to mention and that has been pointed out) The 4831 designation is a value of energy posessed per some predetermined measure of accalerant,..but this changes between cans. I have charts that dictate what I Shute mentioned,..and I have charts that put them at almost the same burn rate. This is something you MUST BY ALL MEANS accept as a reference point,...and ALWAYS back off when starting with a new can. Go to sites that that have tested the powder you wish to use and start low and work up!!!!!


    www.stevespages.com
    http://www.loadyourown.com/
    etc.





    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
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  • Iconoclast
    vet, the variation between lots of the same powder is generally not a significant issue unless one is pushing max loads or concerned about squeezing every possible variation out of a given load for maximum consistency. I don't know, but I suppose if one had a lot of "slow" IMR 4831 and a lot of "fast" H 4831, the rates could tend to converge, but the likelihood of this happening with any given two lots selected at random would be mighty small. The published burn rates are averages, but for most purposes, this data is adequate.

    Incidentally, the burning rate depends on three factors - the actual composition of the powder (both generically - single base or double base - and specifically . . . the chemical variations), the shape / surface area (the more the surface area, faster it burns, which is why pistol powders are typically flake or ball while rifle powder, at least the IMR series, is a stick shape of varying lengths and diameters) and the type / amount of retardant coating on the powder granules. The weight, as JustC noted earlier, is merely a measurement of the amount of a given powder which is used.

    I mean absolutely no insult in saying this and very definitely don't wish to discourage you from asking in the future, but the level of experience reflected by this question strongly implies you would be best served by following the exact details of any published loads which apply to your intended use. Let's put it this way . . . I've been loading for 30+ years and even had a custom loading business for several years, but I've never strayed far from published data in working up loads. If I should use a different primer or bullet than one listed (e.g., Sierra vs. Speer), I will start over for anything except a very mild load and I *always* stay within published charge ranges with the *exact* powders specified. There have been a few times when I am very sure I could have slightly increased the powder charge past published max in complete safety, but I have not - much more often, I've seen some pressure signs which led me to stop below max and throttle back a tad. One final thought - 95% (at least) of the time, you find the best accuracy for a given combination below max. If you should have a Lyman manual, they will list a "most accurate" load. While that is based on the firearm(s) in which they tested the loads, I've found they are generally correct, and it is rarely a maximum load.
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