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odd old musket question

albatrosdva
I just bought an old gun that the people said it was a 1777 Charleville. it isnt but i'd like help figuring out what it is. Everything on it is the exact same as a 1763 Charleville but the butt plate which has two screws in the side and one on the top. I have seen this on 18th century Dutch guns and i was wondering if this is the case or did other countries make them like that with the round screws that protrude out the back instead of being flush to the plate. all of the hardward is brass and it all looks like typical french make of that period if not perhaps a little older. the only markings are on the barrel bands and the are just an inspector mark K. there is a makers initials under the barrel but they are unreadable. it is obvious that most if not all of the peices are original to the gun except that the lock has been converted to percussion. the butt plate if it comes to it may not be original either. the top does not fit to the stock as well as the rest of the parts fit but it has been there a while. the screws are original hand made. that is all i know. i have a few pictures. i cant figure how to send them on this but i will email them to you if you give me an address
thanks for your time
sam
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Comments

12 comments

Date Votes
  • jjmitchell60
    Pictures would be a great help if you do figure out how to post them. You stated it had been converted to percussion right? They way it sounds is that you could have a 63 that has been converted and since you stated the butt plate does not fit the top exactly, it could have been changed as well. Is the butt plate simular to a Bess butt plate? If so I would venture to guess that the butt plate has been changed. Mind you without pictures and going on the info you gave, it is a guess.

    God protect me from my friends, I can take care of my enemies...
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  • rhmc24
    Right about the need for pictures. But even with pictures, a lot of pictures, ID may be questionable. In the 'use period' there were a lot of sources in Europe making guns patterned on French models, many of which varied considerably in detail. The only way to be reasonably sure it is French is to find French markings. The lock plate would have had French arsenal or makers names. If it was French the markings on the lock were probably removed when it was converted to perc. A big doubt item is the brass hardware. Rarely did French muskets have anything but iron furniture. Well into the cartridge period, old muskets were being sold into the colonial areas of the world as trade goods. Some were assembled from random parts. I once had one of the French wannabee muskets, originally flint but conv to perc, sold to the South during the American Civil War. Sorry if I muddy the water. Good Luck!!
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  • albatrosdva
    to muddy the water yet some more i looked over the butt plate and the top screw of the two screws in the back is off center. it may be possible that the screw was added to the "charleville" butt plate and the bent the top enough not to fit right. the lock is quite obvious that the markings were ground off sometime way back in the past. very probably when they converted. there is a 1777 on gunbroker with brass hardware. they call it a marine gun? is this true or a possibility? I know it has been there a while so i dont know if it in fact is a ripoff also.
    thanks
    sam
    pics will come when i can figure it out. anyone who can help in that regard is welcome.
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  • sheepdip
    The 2003 October American Rifleman has a great article on muskets.

    dipit,dipit,dipit!
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  • Iroquois Scout
    Don't forget that all of the early U.S. muskets were patterned after the Fench muskets. Also from 1795 to 1797 Springfield Armory did not mark their muskets with the U.S. I agree that photos are imperative to trying to id your piece.
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  • albatrosdva
    granted i dont know it's history but i got it from Switzerland and i find it much more likely to be continental than american.
    sam
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  • albatrosdva
    here is the auction it came off. it has pictures but not very good ones. i will try hard to get the others on but i have not got them yet.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=13460876


    sam
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  • Iroquois Scout
    Albatrosdva,
    I have looked at the photos from the auction site and you are right, they don't tell you much. Based on those photos I wonder if it is even a French Model 1777. The strap behind the trigger guard should have finger ridges which I don't see in the pictures. The whole trigger guard plate is shorter then in previous models and the rear end is rounded rather then the pointed ends of earlier models. There should be a recessed cheek rest cut into the left side of the butt stock. The front band is held by a screw from the outside, the middle band is friction tight and the rear band is held by a band spring in front of the band. Barrel length was 44 inches. I do not see the rear sling swivel lug which protrudes through the trigger guard plate right in front of the trigger guard. As said before, new pictures will be paramount.
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  • albatrosdva
    just a test to see if this works.
    [img]D:\DSC01314.JPG[/img]
    sam
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  • albatrosdva
    [img]D:\DSC01313.JPG[/img]
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  • albatrosdva
    [img]D:\DSC01312.JPG[/img]
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  • albatrosdva
    [img]D:\DSC01311.JPG[/img]must go now more to follow later
    sam
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