Correct bayonet for M1 Carbine?
I have an early 40's made Winchester M1 carbine and need a bayonet. I have seen several types for sale. Was wondering if anyone knew what would be the correct bayonet? Thanks.
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The correct bayonet is the M-4. Early W.W.II bayonets had compressed leather washer grips, later they were black plastic. Authentic W.W.II bayonets were made by American manufacturers like Case, but there are now many replicas on the market made in China, Korea, and Germany. Almost all of these have plastic grips. 0 -
Early M1 carbines as issued during WWII generally did not have a provision for mounting a bayonet. Instead troops were issued the M3 "trench knife" and although the T4 barrel band with its bayonet lug was adopted in late 1944, I have yet to ever come across a WWII vet who ever saw such a front band installed on any carbine used in combat overseas during the war (although nearly all my research has been dedicated to the M1 Garand). During war time rebuilds and after the war, when massive numbers of carbines were refurbished and rebuilt, the type 4 band was added to practically every carbine in service and bayonets from any of a dozen firms would be considered correct. Some of the WWII manufacturers would be Utica, Camillus, Pal, Ariel, American Cutlery, and a few others. All of these used the grooved leather handles while post war bayonets tended to use black plastic. Look for a leather handled M4 bayonet with the Ordnance Dept. "flaming bomb" marking on the front (sometimes the back) of the cross gaurd. These are getting tougher to find every day in good condition so be prepared to pay a premium price for a nice example.
Mark T. Christian0 -
Thanks to both of you for the great info. The carbine I have doesn't have a bayonet lug and shows no wear of one ever being on. Which of the makers of the bayonet would be the rarest? Thanks Again. 0 -
If it appears to have never had a bayonet lug you might have an early model. Is the rear sight adjustable, or a simple flip over?If its original,hope you're not planning to alter it
Gun control is a steady hand0 -
My knowledge of bayonets is incidental to the collection of firearms, and it really is a speciality field of knowledge by itself. There are some books on the subject (but I don't have them), and can't properly answer your question as to which is the rarest. Frankly, I think that any W.W.II leather-handled M-4 bayonet in good condition has become a collector's item, and the place you are most likely to find one is at a large gun show. When you do, you must be careful to ascertain that it is marked as described by Mr. Christian in his post, as I have encountered foreign-made leather-handled replicas. So, I think it's more a matter of finding one, finding an authentic one, than finding which one. There is a large manufacturer of bayonets in Germany named Eickhorn, and they make both replicas and bayonets past and presently used by some of the world's militaries, and are a mil-spec manufacturer. A company named SARCO, 908-647-9413, www.sarcoinc.com handles many of their bayonets, and often has M1 Carbine bayonets and scabbards listed. They can also supply you with the bayonet lug band necessary for mounting your bayonet on the rifle. If you can not readily locate a W.W.II (leather) or Korean War (plastic)model, an Eickhorn bayonet would be just about the closest replica to authentic you'll be likely to run across, and they may have actually made some for foreign military contracts. 0 -
Oh, yes...while on this subject, should you decide to install the bayonet lug/barrel band on your rifle you'll need to know how to remove the front sight. It's easy to go wrong here if you don't know how the system works. Inside and beneath the sight, between the bottom of the sight and the top of the barrel, there is a slot, and a matching slot cut into the top of the barrel. Inside the slot is a "key" which is a small bar of steel with a semi-circular notch cut in the top. The key retains the sight on the barrel, preventing it from moving forward, backward, or sliding off to either side by means of the pin that passes through the side of the sight's base. To remove the sight you drive out the pin from left to right, then drive out the key from the rear to the front. Examine the key closely upon removal to determine where the notch is located as they usually aren't centered on the key and are a little more toward one end of the key or the other, and this observation will make reinstallation much easier. Once the key is out you simply drive the sight assembly forward off the muzzle using a non-marring hammer or block of wood. 0 -
I totally agree with Hangfire; If this Winchester carbine does not have the T4 front band (with the bayonet lug) installed then please do not put one on it now as you will simply be destroying a good portion of the rifles collector appeal. People actually go to great lengths to REMOVE the T4 band in order to restore their carbine to its original WWII configuration. It sounds to me that you really need a WWII M3 "trench knife" as this would be the correct issue blade for your carbine.
Mark T. Christian0 -
Most U.S. GI M4 Carbine Bayonets were made by:
Camillus (Camillus Cutlery Co., Camillus, NY)- ~400,000 made 44-45
Imperial (Imperial Knife Company, Providence, RI)- ~730,000 made
Utica (Utica Cutlery Co., Utica, NY)- ~500,000 made
PAL (PAL Blade and Tool Co., Plattsburg, NY)- ~130,000 made
Case (W.R. Case $ Sons Cutlery Co., Bradsford, PA)- ~310,000 made
Aerial (Aerial Cutlery Co., Marinette, WI)- ~ 70,000 made
K.I. (Kin Folks Inc., Little Valley, NY))- ~120,000 made
Acco?
The early bayonets (First Production Period) had the leather washers stacked/compressed together to give a grooved appearance. There should be six grooves and there may be plastic spacers at both ends to protect the damp leather from the metal. These spacers are usually found on Camillus, Imperial and Pal. Black rubber handles were next I believe...although extremely rare. Black plastic (Bakelite?) was last.
The M4 bayonet with a leather handle was the first as mentioned and was made by seven different manufacturers during 1944-1945, and again by Camillus in the early 1950's. A small ordinance shell and flaming mark was the final inspection mark and the location differed with the maker.
All finishes were normally parkerized. The colors may vary from a light-greyish green to a dark blue grey. Some had a "war finish" blue that is hard to distinguish from a smooth dark parkerizing.
There were no major variations made regarding the bayonet other than the shape of the pins holding the latches to the pommel.
O.A. Length: 11.5"
Blade Length: 6.75"
Fuller Length: None
Blade Width: 0.875"
Length of "False Edge": 3"
As was mentioned earlier, early M1 Carbines were issued w/a trench knife in early 1943 since a knife seemed to be needed at times.
Initially, the barrel was thought to be too thin to support a bayonet. Also, the Carbine, Caliber .30 M1 was issued initially as a replacement for the pistol for officers and certain specialty troops. They were not seen as needing a bayonet.
Numerous requests for a bayonet were made and an apparent demand/need was addressed in early October 1943 to develop a bayonet for the carbine.
Four test models were submitted for evaluation. The fourth model...the "T8" won. It was essentially a T3 trench knife converted to a bayonet. It was favored for several reasons...one in that it was easy for the current manufacturers of the T3 trench knife to re-tool for it's production.
The initial model became unlatched too easily and bayonet loss could occur. It was modified to the T8A1. The "catch" was modified to incorporate two catches operating from both sides. The new T8A1 "bayonet-knife" was adopted as the standard and became the M4.
This is just an over-view of this topic. There is too much information. I got most of this from a book and used it sparingly with paraphrase to avoid too much plagerism or potential copyright violations! [:D] I think I have honored their restrictions to the type of use and scope regarding their information as is outlined on page ii. [:)]
If your interested, the book I got most of this from is:
American Military Bayonets of the 20TH Century
Author; Gary M. Cunningham
Copyright 1996
Second Printing April 1998
Published by: Scott A. Duff Publications
I don't remember what I paid for it, but it was reasonable and it is very interesting in it's depth and scope.
Oh yeah, barrel bands w/bayonet lugs used to be available new for about $10. They probably still are. But like Mark said; it might not be a good idea since it will effect the collectability/desireability of it to the discriminating collector.
Best Regards
Edit:
First Production Run - Leather Handle (see above)
Second Production Period - Plastic Handle
The plastic handles were introduced in 1953. Reasons are obvious!
Manufacturers:
TMN (Turner Manufacturing Co., Statesville, NC)
Imperial (Imperial Manufacturing Co., Statesville, NC)
Conetta (Conetta Manufacturing Co., Stamford, CN)
Bren-Dan (Bren-Dan Manufacturing Company, Stamford, CN)0 -
THANKS again for everyones input. Yea I don't plan to put a bayonet lug on it. New to the M1's and was just gather infomation. It does have a rear fip sight. This is the serial number if it can provide more info. #10839XX. Thanks. 0 -
Here is the first set of serial numbers assigned to contractors:
1-5 Inland
6-10 Winchester
11-999,999 Inland
1,000,000-1,349,999 Winchester
There were 34 blocks of serial numbers asigned to various manufacturers. The ten manufacturers that received these numbers did not necessarily use all (or perhaps any) assigned to them. The last block went to Inland: #7,369,661-8,069,660. There were just over six-million produced.
The M1 Carbine was adopted on October 22, 1941. It was used by every branch of the military beginning during WWI and saw use through Vietnam. Over six-million were produced by ten major contractors and supported by over 1600 subcontractors all in under four years.
The block of serial numbers your carbine falls into began production at Winchester in November 1941. Winchester's first delivery of these rifles occurred on September 1942.
Inland delivered the first carbines in June 1942...seven months after their production contract was issued.0 -
THANK YOU for keeping it original!!!Please don't 'Clean it up" too much.An oiled rag is enough, and dont even think of refinishing the wood[8D].You have the correct rear sight....way to go-Bob
Gun control is a steady hand0
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