1894 winchester barrel a bit loose
I recently bought a 1894 winchester with a oct barrel,sr under 18,000, the barrel is just a little bit loose at the recever, can this be tightend up without hurting the value? The gun is in good shape, the bore is perfect,38-55 cal, I would love to shoot it but I thought I would fix this first if I could.One other thing, It looks like the bolt has been changed, it's blueing is quite a bit brighter than the rest of the gun,is this normal? Or if I look for a older bolt that matches better are they different for each cal?
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1947willys...
Is your Model 1894 a Takedown rifle[?] If not, I can not fathom how the barrel could or would be loose.
As for the bolt having a brighter blue on it, that is not unusual, and is quite commonly seen on the older Model 1886, 1892, and 1894s.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
As far as I know it's not a takedown,How do you tell? That does bring up a question I had, is there any place to get original old screws for the sides of the recever, these have been messed up a little. I have seen the new repacements and they don't match very well. 0 -
Hi, Willys--You probably won't want to hear this (not all of it anyway)but I think that you have a gun that has been tinkered with. First, if your serial no. is close to 18,000 it would have been made in 1899. It is unlikely that the barrel would have survived all those years in nice condition (unlikely--but admittedly not impossible), and the new looking bolt is the give-away that the barrel has probably been replaced and left a little loose to achieve headspace with the new bolt. Since the barrel is octagon if it is tightened past a certain point you'd have a sharp corner running down the top of the barrel instead of a flat! So, the inexperienced person that replaced the barrel left it loose as a compromise. The good news is that almost any gunsmith with a lathe can refit the barrel to where it is top dead center and tight. The rest of the bad news is, that since it has been rebarrelled and otherwise altered it is no longer much of a collector item and is just basically worth what it is worth as a shooter. You can probably get replacement screws from the Numrich Gun Parts Corp. and "age" them a little to match the receiver's finish. 0 -
1946willys...
For what it is worth, a Model 1894 with a serial number under 18,000 would have been made in early 1895... not 1899.
On a Takedown rifle, the magazine tube will have a lever on the end of it, and the frame will have a seam with a 1/2" thick takedown ring on the forward end of that seam. The below link is to an auction on this site that shows several pictures of a Takedown Model 94 - http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=13221464
While it is possible that somebody has messed with your rifle sometime in its 108 year lifespan, I don't buy Der Gebirgsjager's theory. Specifically, if an octagon barrel is not threaded completely into the frame properly, the forestock will not fit up to the barrel and frame (the forestock is specially cut to match the contour of the octagon barrel). Also, in order to have the sights oriented properly, the barrel must be fully and properly threaded into the frame... unless it is backed off one FULL turn, and if that were the case, it would be REAL evident! Winchester barrels were made so that they could be screwed into any other gun of the same model, and not require any special fitting. I find it very unlikley that the bolt would have been replaced even if the barrel was swapped out. My bet is that you do have a Takedown. With continued shooting (especially heavy loads) they would wear/work loose, and it makes the entire barrel assembly feel loose (the takedown ring can in most cases be adjusted to reduce or eliminate the looseness).
As a final comment, you can (and should) get a factory letter from the Cody Firearms Museum that will tell you exactly when your rifle was made, as well as all the pertinent information about it (which will confirm the caliber, barrel shape, length, if it is a Takedown, etc.).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
quote:Originally posted by Der Gebirgsjager
The good news is that almost any gunsmith with a lathe can refit the barrel to where it is top dead center and tight. The rest of the bad news is, that since it has been rebarrelled and otherwise altered it is no longer much of a collector item and is just basically worth what it is worth as a shooter. You can probably get replacement screws from the Numrich Gun Parts Corp. and "age" them a little to match the receiver's finish.
What[?][?][?] You apparently have not done any work on these before, or you would know it is NOT as simple as just turning down the barrel. If you turn down a Winchester octagon barrel, how do you propose to get the magazine tube to reattach to the barrel properly[?] If you turn down the barrel one full revolution (to realign the magazine tube ring), the magazine tube is now too long![V]
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Tanks for the replies. Let me add this, the barrel markings are correct for 1895,and so are the engraving on the hammer. I don't think the barrel has been changed. If it was it was a long time ago. The finish matches to well and its not a takedown. The story and yes it's just a story. Is this gun was used by some great grand father when he helped move gold by wagon train fron San francisco to San deigo after the 1906 eathquake? The man said and I would have no reason to not beleve him for he told this to my brother after I bought it. And that it had been in the family ever sence. but his dad wasn't a gun man and neather was he. So he thought it was time to sell. He said the gun hadn't been shot for about 60 years.?? theres no dought it has been apart, maybe just to clean? It was a black powder gun when it came out wasn't it? 0 -
Willys: I still have some Win. Factory Orig. parts for the 1894 left. Email me and let me know which ones you are looking for.
"Bert H" I have done several of these. All you have to do is trim down the magazine tube from the receiver end at the same time.
Good Luck[:)][:)]0 -
Well.....lessee.....taking another look at my serial number list....yes, I mis-read the numbers: 183371 was 1899, and 18000 would have fallen into the 1895 grouping. Now, that error having been admitted (and I feel that I am one of the few participants on this forum that readily does so) I would have to note that the following facts remain: A. Willys says it is definately not a takedown model. B. The finish of the bolt is said not to match the rest of the gun. C. The barrel is said to be loose. Say, Bert H. I notice that you are displeased with my "cure" for the problem, whereas the same is readily appreciated by PFD who understands that you just start at the rear and make everything a little shorter (except the chamber, which will have to be cut a little deeper). So, Bert H., in view of the above stated facts that we have to work with, I wonder what your theory is of why the barrel is loose? I guess you've worked on some of these, and could help us out. Thanks. 0 -
i had a 30wcf take down..model..i took it to no less than 3 gunsmiths and the condition of mine was destined to be a wall hanger forever..some of these old boys cannot be be brought back to life... a shame indeed
it is good that we meet in the struggle of life or death.. .....it shall be life!0 -
quote:Originally posted by Der Gebirgsjager
Well.....lessee.....taking another look at my serial number list....yes, I mis-read the numbers: 183371 was 1899, and 18000 would have fallen into the 1895 grouping. Now, that error having been admitted (and I feel that I am one of the few participants on this forum that readily does so) I would have to note that the following facts remain: A. Willys says it is definately not a takedown model. B. The finish of the bolt is said not to match the rest of the gun. C. The barrel is said to be loose. Say, Bert H. I notice that you are displeased with my "cure" for the problem, whereas the same is readily appreciated by PFD who understands that you just start at the rear and make everything a little shorter (except the chamber, which will have to be cut a little deeper). So, Bert H., in view of the above stated facts that we have to work with, I wonder what your theory is of why the barrel is loose? I guess you've worked on some of these, and could help us out. Thanks.
Der...
I am not "displeased" with your reply, or PFD's response... and it was not my intent to start any kind of dispute. However, I don't agree with either one of you in that it is a simple task to "properly" set back an octagon barrel on a Winchester lever-action rifle.
PFD's reply "All you have to do is trim down the magazine tube from the receiver end at the same time." is completely bogus, and it indicates to me that he does not know of what he speaks[V]. If you agree with him, then you also are incorrect. Do either one of you recognize the name Roger Kurtz (who just so happens to be a really good acquaintance of mine)[?]. I (and he) would be really interested to hear (step by step) exactly how you would properly shorten the magazine tube on a lever action rifle that you have set the barrel back on... and here is a hint... you don't cut/trim it down on the receiver end (think about what you are going to do with the cartridge follower).
As for the real reason that the barrel is loose on 1946willys Model 1894, who knows... and until we can personally lay our own eyes & hands on it, it is nothing more than pure speculation. He did not explain very well "how" or "where" it is loose. I went with the most likely (common) possibility for why the barrel is "loose". Both of you fellows know (or should know) that the most common reason for a barrel to be "loose" on an old Winchester is because the Takedown system has become sloppy after many years of shooting. Until 1946willys finally determined that this rifle was not a takedown, that was the the best bet. In speculation, it could be anything thing from damaged threads on the barrel shank (or heaven forbid, the frame itself), or it may just be a slight amount of rotational play in the barrel when it is spun up to the frame. I have seen a few barrels that had damage to the shoulder face right at the transition point between the shank and the barrel (instead of being perfectly flat & perpendicular, the shoulder was rounded, and allowed the barrel to be slightly over rotated when screwed into the frame). One thing is for sure... when Winchester originally manufactured the barrels for a particular Model (the older made rifles), ANY barrel of that Model could be spun on to any other rifle of the same Model, and it would index properly without the need for special fitting.
Finally, I said this before, but will repeat it for your benefit. It is REAL common to find Model 1886s, 1892s, and 1894s that have a nice bright looking bolt, but the rest of the frame has little or no finish left on it. This is caused by the method most of these rifles were carried in the field.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Bert H. You mentioned the (cartridge) Magazine Follower #5794 on what you would do with it if you made the Winc. M-94 Magazine Tube shorter. The Magazine Tube #13394 is a straight tube and could be used for most all of the M-1894s by changing the length. The Magazine Follower and seats on the lip in the front of the receiver with the Mag Tube. It just takes time to do it and I have done many over the years. [:)] 0
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