Copper fouling
I have a Browning Bar 338 Win Mag with BOSS that has a terrible "copper fouling" problem. I scub and clean the barrel until it is spotless, and after 5 or 6 rounds the barrel is FULL of copper. And I mean FULL. I sent it back to Browning for repair. They sent it back to me stating that the gun had been repaired. Although, nobody at Browning could tell me what was actually done to this gun. It was not repaired. I do not shoot reloads, only Factory Win. Fail Safe ammo. Can anybody tell me what I can do to solve this problem? I would hate to have to use this gun for a $1000 boat anchor.
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Sounds like you have a really rough bore due to rifling. Since you don't reload, lapping the barrel using lapping bullets is out. Would suggest you either find a gunsmith that will handlap the bore for you or find articles on the internet telling how to do it yourself. With the work and equipment involved, suggest strongly finding a competent gunsmith.
Keep off the Ridgeline0 -
You have what is called a rough factory barrel. Get some sweets 7.62 and clean after EACH shot for about 30-40rnds. then start to shoot for 3-5rnds between cleanings. The barrel will polish out and your fouling will be greatly reduced.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/shooting.htm
BENEFITS:
Thermal and mechanical stresses are relieved, reducing the possibility of uneven warping while firing your gun, improving its accuracy. The metals porosity is reduced, thereby reducing friction, excessive heat and wear. The tighter surface structure also makes the barrel and complete gun much easier to clean!
"LIFE IS NOT A JOURNEY TO THE GRAVE WITH THE INTENTION OF ARIVING SAFELY IN ONE PRETTY AND WELL PRESERVED PIECE, BUT, TO SKID ACROSS THE LINE BROADSIDE, THOUGHRLY USED UP, WORN OUT, LEAKING OIL, SHOUTING GERONIMO!!"0 -
How many rounds you put thru that bad boy so far?
There are kits available for fire-lapping bores & you don't HAVE to reload your own ammo to use it; you can apply the graded lapping compounds to factory loads & get the same results, you just have to be careful when "rolling in" the lapping compounds.
Here's one from Midway U.S.A.:
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/646612
You can get an idea of what fire-lapping can do for you at:
http://www.zediker.com/tubb/finalfinish.html
If you use Sweets, BE SURE you get it all out before using other solvents. The jury is still out about whether Sweets alone can cause pitting but it's pretty well known that mixing bore cleaning agents together will cause more problems than copper fouling will ever give you.0 -
I put about 15 boxes trough it before I sent it to Browning for repair. After the first box I realized I had a major problem. I picked up some Sweets 7.62 and cleaned the hell out of the barrel. After it was all said and done, I used 4 bottles of Sweets and 14 more boxes of Win. Fail Safe ammo.
I took it to the range after Browning returnrd it to me "Repaired".
I shot 5 times and the barrel was FULL of copper.0 -
One thing you haven't told us is, how does it shoot? Compair the first 5 round group to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (one box of shells). If it's still grouping as good (or better) fouled, than don't worry about it. Yes, you can get to carried away on getting all the copper out.
"Cryo" is (suposidly) a way to remove stress from the barrel, but it's not going to remove machine marks.
"Fire-scrapping" is the last thing you try before turning the barrel into a tomato (or tent) stake.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
steve,
This is the description of Fail Safe bullets directly from Winchester's website. I'm not trying to be redundant in your case but rather supplying it for others that want to participate. This is a hybrid bullet, being half solid copper and half lead filled in the rear section. Sort of a half breed Partition.
CATALOG ? CENTERFIRE RIFLE ? S338XA SPEC SHEET
338 Winchester Magnum
230 gr. Supremer Fail Safer
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.436 Product Symbol: S338XA
Supremer Fail Safer: Solid, copper-alloy nose with notched hollow point cavity, combined with a lead core protected by a steel insert, delivers deep penetration and uniform, controlled expansion with virtual 100% bullet weight retention.
Description: Delayed, controlled expansion. Deep penetration through thick, tough skin, heavy muscle tissue and bone.
Rounds Per Box: 20
Box MSRP: $50.40
Rounds Per Case: 200
Case MSRP: $504.00
Rifle Ballistics
Distance (yds) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2780 - 2573 2375 2186 2005 1834
Distance (yds) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Energy (ft. lbs.) 3948 - 3382 2881 2441 2054 1719
Distance (yds) 50 100 150 200 250 300
Short Trajectory (in.) -0.1 0 -1.2 -3.8 -7.9 -13.7
Distance (yds) 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Long Trajectory (in.) 1.9 1.7 0 -3.2 -8.1 -23.4 -47.4
The problem with 'solid' copper bullets is that they generally copper foul immensely. They have to be somewhat soft in order to open up on impact but then they have to also be somewhat hard so that they don't just "smear" (highly technical term) when fired down the bore. Read the discussions about Barnes 'X' bullets and how so many shooters really bad-mouth them for severe copper fouling. In this case, however, the comparison is more like the Barnes 'XLC' bullets or other bullets that are 'moly' coated since Winchester/Nosler chose to give them a coating. In the situation with your barrel though, it seems that the coating isn't able to do it's job.
Here are a couple of things for consideration.
Just shooting more copper bullets down a bore doesn't do anything for smoothing out that bore. Copper is softer than steel and only ends up filling in the spaces in the finish of the bore giving the feeling of smoothness. You have already proven this with 15 boxes of ammunition. (I admire your tenacity!)
Barrel bores that don't copper foul are usually very smooth, in that the tooling marks and other manufacturing faults have been removed. Here is an article from Dan Lilja's website regarding fouling. Well worth the effort to read. http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm
Below, I included information about a gunshop in Minnesota that I think is about 200 miles southwest of you. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with this shop and I haven't ever spoken with them or had them complete any work for me. They came as a suggestion from someone that I know in the area.
I think that your barrel could do with a good lapping. But lapping with a lead lap is a knack or an art. It isn't something that any old gun plumber can do correctly. A better choice would be a barrel maker. But I'm sure that there would be problems since they would probably only want to work on their own barrels. I don't know for sure. You will have to contact some to find out.
Well, that's long winded but I hope that it helps a little bit.
Best.
http://www.ahlmans.com/
Ahlman's
9525 W. 230th St.
Morristown, MN 55052
(507) 685-4244
(507) 685-4243
FAX Number: (507) 685-4280
--Answered 9-5 Monday thru Saturday--
______________________________________________________________________
I had my memory jogged by another person working on the same problem. He is trying a product named 'Wipe out'. The link to the website is below. I added here so that there would be one more space left for a response.
http://www.paulcousa.com/wipeout.htm
Best.0 -
I'm surprised no one mentioned JB Bore Paste. It has a very mild abrasive in suspension that, with proper use, will smoothe your bore so the copper won't stick.
I use it when I'm trying to get the best performance from a barrel.
I simply mop the bore with Hoppe's, Shooter's Choice, Outers or even 3-in-1 oil for lubrication, then smear about a pea-sized blob on a patch, impale the patch on a tight jag, and start massaging the bore with long, slow strokes all the way to the muzzle and back about 10 times. Then I flush out the debris with more solvent, and start over.
I rarely have to do it to the same bore twice in its' lifetime.
Be sure to thoroughly clean the bore before & after using JB's, and take a look at a clean, bright bore!
If you know it all; you must have been listening.WEAR EAR PROTECTION!0 -
I would go with gunnuts suggestion of using JB Borepaste. A word of caution, read the instructions on the bottle.
I do have a few questions about your rifle. How new is it and how many rounds have been fired through it?
If you ain't got a sense of humor you got no business bein here!0 -
My shot grouping was about 1 1/4 at 100 yards for the first two rounds. I had to make some changes with the scope and my grouping went from 1 1/4 to about 13 inches with the next 3 shots. I had someone else shoot this gun with the same 13 in. groups. 0 -
does this rifle always open up to 13"group after shooting or did your scope take a crap on you or mounts loose. if it always opens up i would say you have a stock putting to much presure on bbl and ect i am not very familar with browning rifles pretty much all winnys mod70's here but i have yet to have a rifle that didnt respond well to having the bbl floated. not an answer to your fouling prob though. might find a smith with a bore scope take a look it and go from there. also try some of the sugestion mentioned in above posts...i take it that this is a prtty new rifle???
doc0
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