Polytech M-14
I want to know what this gun is worth. It's a POLYTECH M-14 unfired with two 20rd. mags and sling. I am getting it from a friend and entend to resale it. Thank you in advance for your help with this.
OUTLAW1911
OUTLAW1911
0
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Can anyone tell me what a new, unfired Polytech M14 is worth. This gun is equipped with the following:
Composite stock
B-Square BiPod
BeamShot Laser sights
Bushnell 3x9 Variable scope
Springfield Armory Pre-ban flash suppressor w/ Bayonet lug
Sling
4-20 rnd metal clips
I need to know because I am considering selling it!
Thanks
Jim
jandtragsdale@juno.com
Jim Ragsdale0 -
Hi and how are you.
Here is just a little insite on the polytech M14 from the Fulton Armory and I think it is worth reading before you sell or think of selling your Rifle.And as far as the worth of the Rifle maybe 5 or 6 bills.
The locking lug helix (surface contour) of the Chinese bolt does not agree/match the locking lug helix of the receiver. Thus, the bolt locking lug surfaces only partially contact the receiver locking lug surfaces. As you fire the rifle, the bolt will "collapse" back onto the locking lugs of the receiver until "enough" surface contact is engaged to stop the rearward force caused by the 50,000 PSI or so that is produced on each firing. As the bolt moves rearward, headspace is lost. Often/mostly/always massive headspace loss occurs. I have seen The locking lug helix (surface contour) of the Chinese bolt does not agree/match the locking lug helix of the receiver. Thus, the bolt locking lug surfaces only partially contact the receiver locking lug surfaces. As you fire the rifle, the bolt will "collapse" back onto the locking lugs of the receiver until "enough" surface contact is engaged to stop the rearward force caused by the 50,000 PSI or so that is produced on each firing. As the bolt moves rearward, headspace is lost. Often/mostly/always massive headspace loss occurs. I have seen Chinese bolts that close & move back & forth with a field gauge. I have witnessed headspace readings estimated (no gauge long enough to be certain) at greater than 20 thous. beyond Go. G.I. bolt's will also "collapse" when receiver locking lugs are not correct (commercial receivers sometimes have poor locking lug surfaces which is why we at Fulton Armory always hand lap every bolt to every commercial receiver to ensure excellent engagement before we install/set headspace), though they move rearward more slowly due to better heat treat & steel. The fact that the Chinese bolts are very soft, amplifies the problem. BTW, the locking lug helix of the Chinese receiver does agree/match the helix of the G.I. M14 bolts quite nicely. I have never had to hand lap a G.I. bolt for more than say, 15-20 minutes to get a beautiful engagement. It's quite odd. It's as though someone ground on the Chinese bolt lugs with a handtool.
2. The Chinese bolt is "too long" as it relates to the firing pin bridge of the receiver, which retracts the firing pin on loading. As the Chinese bolt moves reward, the firing pin tail also moves reward. So much so that the firing pin bridge does not effectively/at all retract the firing pin! I have seen Chinese rifles where the firing pin did not retract at all. This is quite dangerous. Add to this bolt "geometry" problem the fact that the trigger & sears, & hammers are also way too soft (hammer fall will occur) one can see the train wreck ahead.
Click HERE for more on the Chinese bolt.
Final comments:
A. One thousand rounds through an M14 is nothing. I have customers who do this in a month. The whole point of possessing fine military rifles is that their design, properly executed, provides for a durability & reliability virtually unknown in commercial products.
B. That a rifle has not failed catastrophically, nor a wing fallen off, is hardly a measure of acceptability, safety or serviceability.
C. The vast majority of Chinese M14's that come into our shop have excessive headspace, among other maladies. A very few have had too tight a headspace, which is quite odd.
Fulton Armory builds Service and Competition Grade rifles on Polytech and Norinco receivers from customer-supplied rifles. The result is a superlative M14-type rifle with a forged receiver, as close to GI as you can get.
Note to Walt: The barrel must be replaced to allow for a G.I. bolt to fit, and even then, the receiver needs relieving to safely accept the bolt! THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT! Also, the Hammer, Trigger & Sear need to be replaced.
Our package should be done all at once, or not at all. You would not believe the horrendous examples that come into the shop that were "worked on" by the local "Gunsmith," trying to fit the G.I. bolt. One needs to know what to grind, and even more importantly, what not to grind. You really would not believe it. You're too trusting to believe what I've seen, Walt
--Clint McKee
A postscript from Kirk Hays:
Having owned several of the Chinese M14S rifles, and having a set of M14 receiver gauges available to me, I have independently confirmed what Clint says about the receiver geometries. The Chinese receivers are dimensionally as good as TRW rifles in the collection of a friend. Period.
The finish on the Norinco receivers is rough on non-functional surfaces - they are ugly, and Polytech receivers are only slightly better.
John Kepler has inside information that the DCM was actually looking at using Chinese receivers for providing M14 rifles to Service Rifle competitors, and access to a steel analysis done on the recievers, showing it to be 5100 steel, which is a very good alloy for receivers, but a bit difficult to work.
--Kirk Hays
More on the Chinese bolts from Clint:
The Chinese bolts have a great deal more problems than just the heat treating. Incidentally, whether a part is cast or forged has nothing to do with whether they need to be heat treated. These bolts could be transmutated into Kryptonite, but they will still be dangerously substandard.
The problems include:
The bolt's locking lugs are cut wrong !The helixial angles are dead wrong, and thusly, they do NOT properly contact the opposing receiver's locking lugs. A very bad condition, as headspace will be lost over time. Sometimes, in only a few hundred rounds! The bolt sits very far back and away from the barrel mouth, and thus, provides very poor support to the cartridge case at its base. Bear in mind, this has nothing to do with headspace (this condition can exist even with proper headspace). The "closer" a bolt fits to the barrel mouth, the better the support of the case. Over the years, improperly manufactured barrels have shown us what can happen, even with proper headspace, when the cartridge's base is not properly supported: total case failure with catastrophic results. In the Chinese rifle example, it's the bolt sitting too far back on a proper barrel!
Next, because the bolt sits so far back in the receiver, the firing pin tail (which exits at the rear of the bolt body) is also too far rearward and thusly, the firing pin is not properly retracted by the receiver's firing pin bridge.
If you ever have an opportunity to examine a Chinese rifle, remove the op rod, and take notice of how far the bolt can move back & fro, while in battery. In many of these rifles, it's scary. Naturally, how far it will move will depend on how many rounds have been fired and just how bad the bolt was originally.
So, IMHO, forget spending a bunch, or a little, money on "heat treating" the Chinese bolts.
--Clint McKee
See two reviews of this package:
Fulton Armory Upgrade of Polytech M14/S For Newbies
Chinese bolts that close & move back & forth with a field gauge. I have witnessed headspace readings estimated (no gauge long enough to be certain) at greater than 20 thous. beyond Go. G.I. bolt's will also "collapse" when receiver locking lugs are not correct (commercial receivers sometimes have poor locking lug surfaces which is why we at Fulton Armory always hand lap every bolt to every commercial receiver to ensure excellent engagement before we install/set headspace), though they move rearward more slowly due to better heat treat & steel. The fact that the Chinese bolts are very soft, amplifies the problem. BTW, the locking lug helix of the Chinese receiver does agree/match the helix of the G.I. M14 bolts quite nicely. I have never had to hand lap a G.I. bolt for more than say, 15-20 minutes to get a beautiful engagement. It's quite odd. It's as though someone ground on the Chinese bolt lugs with a handtool.
2. The Chinese bolt is "too long" as it relates to the firing pin bridge of the receiver, which retracts the firing pin on loading. As the Chinese bolt moves reward, the firing pin tail also moves reward. So much so that the firing pin bridge does not effectively/at all retract the firing pin! I have seen Chinese rifles where the firing pin did not retract at all. This is quite dangerous. Add to this bolt "geometry" problem the fact that the trigger & sears, & hammers are also way too soft (hammer fall will occur) one can see the train wreck ahead.
Click HERE for more on the Chinese bolt.
Final comments:
A. One thousand rounds through an M14 is nothing. I have customers who do this in a month. The whole point of possessing fine military rifles is that their design, properly executed, provides for a durability & reliability virtually unknown in commercial products.
B. That a rifle has not failed catastrophically, nor a wing fallen off, is hardly a measure of acceptability, safety or serviceability.
C. The vast majority of Chinese M14's that come into our shop have excessive headspace, among other maladies. A very few have had too tight a headspace, which is quite odd.
Fulton Armory builds Service and Competition Grade rifles on Polytech and Norinco receivers from customer-supplied rifles. The result is a superlative M14-type rifle with a forged receiver, as close to GI as you can get.
Note to Walt: The barrel must be replaced to allow for a G.I. bolt to fit, and even then, the receiver needs relieving to safely accept the bolt! THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT! Also, the Hammer, Trigger & Sear need to be replaced.
Our package should be done all at once, or not at all. You would not believe the horrendous examples that come into the shop that were "worked on" by the local "Gunsmith," trying to fit the G.I. bolt. One needs to know what to grind, and even more importantly, what not to grind. You really would not believe it. You're too trusting to believe what I've seen, Walt
--Clint McKee
A postscript from Kirk Hays:
Having owned several of the Chinese M14S rifles, and having a set of M14 receiver gauges available to me, I have independently confirmed what Clint says about the receiver geometries. The Chinese receivers are dimensionally as good as TRW rifles in the collection of a friend. Period.
The finish on the Norinco receivers is rough on non-functional surfaces - they are ugly, and Polytech receivers are only slightly better.
John Kepler has inside information that the DCM was actually looking at using Chinese receivers for providing M14 rifles to Service Rifle competitors, and access to a steel analysis done on the recievers, showing it to be 5100 steel, which is a very good alloy for receivers, but a bit difficult to work.
--Kirk Hays
More on the Chinese bolts from Clint:
The Chinese bolts have a great deal more problems than just the heat treating. Incidentally, whether a part is cast or forged has nothing to do with whether they need to be heat treated. These bolts could be transmutated into Kryptonite, but they will still be dangerously substandard.
The problems include:
The bolt's locking lugs are cut wrong !The helixial angles are dead wrong, and thusly, they do NOT properly contact the opposing receiver's locking lugs. A very bad condition, as headspace will be lost over time. Sometimes, in only a few hundred rounds! The bolt sits very far back and away from the barrel mouth, and thus, provides very poor support to the cartridge case at its base. Bear in mind, this has nothing to do with headspace (this condition can exist even with proper headspace). The "closer" a bolt fits to the barrel mouth, the better the support of the case. Over the years, improperly manufactured barrels have shown us what can happen, even with proper headspace, when the cartridge's base is not properly supported: total case failure with catastrophic results. In the Chinese rifle example, it's the bolt sitting too far back on a proper barrel!
Next, because the bolt sits so far back in the receiver, the firing pin tail (which exits at the rear of the bolt body) is also too far rearward and thusly, the firing pin is not properly retracted by the receiver's firing pin bridge.
If you ever have an opportunity to examine a Chinese rifle, remove the op rod, and take notice of how far the bolt can move back & fro, while in battery. In many of these rifles, it's scary. Naturally, how far it will move will depend on how many rounds have been fired and just how bad the bolt was originally.
So, IMHO, forget spending a bunch, or a little, money on "heat treating" the Chinese bolts.
--Clint McKee
DO RIGHT GUNSMITH, INC.0 -
Probably about 5 to 10 years in the slammer, the M14S is illegal with both the bayonet lug and flash hider installed. If enough USA made parts were added, it would be legal with one or the other, but not both.
Sarco is selling new Chicom M14S rifles for a bit under $800.00, they don't have the accessories you describe. Personally I think that's too high for one.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.0 -
fulton armory also makes a ton of money fixing rifles that are perfectly fine!!!!! 0 -
I agree with toolman, Fulton has a tendency to scare people into spending lots of money. cprmd is a member who use to hang around quite a bit, I haven't heard from him in a while. He shot thousands and thousands of rounds in chicom M14S rifles, indicated all you really need to watch is the headspacing, as I recall. I wish he was here now. I think he would agree Fulton goes overboard on the scare and overboard on the price as well.
You really should do something with the flash hider and bayonet lug before you sell it. It just ain't legal like it is.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.0 -
Some of my best groups was shot with a polytech m-14. Do not tell the guy's a Fulton Armory, they will want to tear the gun apart and find out what was wrong with it. 0 -
Fulton Armory and its "voices" have been bad-mouthing the Chinese
M-14's forever. All of the nonsense comes from these rumors and innuendos. Ask someone who owns one! I have two of them and they are just fine. Furthermore, I've tried (for the fun of it) to switch components with US. No Problem!
Morty
Have fun, be careful!
.0 -
its worth what you paid for it or...its worth what the tag says. most dealers wont try to make a killing off an import like that. i bought one for my uncle who just wanted it to pop deer in his back yard under 100 yards. hasnt failed him yet. and...it was bought in 1995 nib. i had a u.s. flash hider and bolt assy fitted to it. it was a pain, but we did it(right) its still working and his freezer is full.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.0 -
NOT SURE WHETHER THE NAYSAYERS
WORK FOR FULTON OR SPRINGFIELD
ARMORY.
ONE MAKES BIG MONEY 'FIXING'
POLYTECS AND THE OTHER DOESN'T
WANT ANY COMPETITION AT HALF OF
SPRINGFIELD'S OVER INFLATED PRICES.
THE POLYTEC FOR MY MONEY IS JUST
AS GOOD FOR HALF THE PRICE.
I'VE USED BOTH PLUS SHOT A LOT
WITH REAL M14'S IN THE MARINES.
SD-REMNUTT10 -
If the rifle is a preban which I bet it is, the flash hider & the bayonet lug would be legal I believe. Maybe you mean never been fired instead of New?
Mark C. Would know.
Regards,
0
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