Low Penetration Round
Okay, this is just some aloud thinking, but I want to get some serious opinions. Maybe it has been thought of already.
For sharpshooting in an urban environment, there is a lot of discussion of overpenetration by the .308 and underpenetration by the .223 (in general terms barring specific round weights). So here is my thought....
If we chambered for the 7.62x39 rather than the 7.62x51 and we reloaded the powder to a lower than normal grain for the 7.62x39 round, it seems to me that we could get the best of several worlds.... the stopping kick of the 7.62 round, the penetration punch of the 7.62 with less fear of overpenetration or deviation in flight through glass or metal, and a short round for less recoil and shorter bolt action.
Thoughts?
For sharpshooting in an urban environment, there is a lot of discussion of overpenetration by the .308 and underpenetration by the .223 (in general terms barring specific round weights). So here is my thought....
If we chambered for the 7.62x39 rather than the 7.62x51 and we reloaded the powder to a lower than normal grain for the 7.62x39 round, it seems to me that we could get the best of several worlds.... the stopping kick of the 7.62 round, the penetration punch of the 7.62 with less fear of overpenetration or deviation in flight through glass or metal, and a short round for less recoil and shorter bolt action.
Thoughts?
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What are you shooting at to fear over penetration? 0 -
Collateral damage is not a best choice option. It never is. 0 -
That is why you look at what is behind your target whatever it may be be before you shoot. 0 -
I am afraid I do not follow your logic. Are you saying to download the velocity of the bullet and keep the stopping power, penetration, and stability of the round yet reduce over penetration? 0 -
Israeli police have found that the 5.56 also over penetrates in a close quarter urban enviroment. That is one of the reasons that they still widely use the .30 M1 Carbine(7.62x33mm) for urban forces. 0 -
There is a perfect caliber out there! Specifiaclly designed to work thru the AR action. It offers good long range energies, adequate penetration, excellent accuracy and can be loaded subsonic..to boot!
The .300 Whisper! Its formed from a .221 fireball case necked up to .30 cal. Its avalible comertially. When loaded with a 200+ gr. bullet is sub sonic, ideal for supressed firearms. If loaded with the lighter, say 125 Nosler BT it moves right out! Check it out in your manuals!
CW
Watch that front sight! <BR>Teach a kid to shoot!<P><BR>0 -
Glaser and some of the other frangible rounds are the best way to deal with concerns about over-penetration--although it can be expensive. 0 -
I have worked with the frangible rounds and you are correct. They release the energy effectively on target without much over-penetration.
The comment earlier on about the .223 overpenetrating is also correct. In certain situations with the heavier ss109 round it will over penetrate in close quarters. My thoughts are from external to internal. A lot of shots must be taken through panel glass which the .223 just does not do well in (or auto safetly glass as has been demonstrated too many times). The .308/7.62 does go through this better - especially the steel cored rounds - but this is often too much round after it hits target.
As I thought more about this after I posted, it struck me that I was thinking of lessening the charge in the round - which can be as effectively done in the 51mm case as in the 39mm case. But the burn efficiency of a lower charge in the larger 51mm case has been bothering me. It seems - and I have not done the math, thus my asking here - that a lower charge in a 39mm casing would give more psi on the round that would otherwise be lost in the extra 12mm of casing in the 51mm case. This thrust loss, it seems, could be abated by using a smaller casing, but still achieve a powerful enough kick to cut through auto safetly glass or panel glass and still neutralize the target by transferring the remaining energy to the target without overpenetrating.
Maybe I am off target here (no pun intended), but this is one of those things that gets into your head and you just can't shake it. I feel like there is something simple I am overlooking. For all of you other tactical shooters, ....help?0 -
Try using frangible bullets. They are generally a empty jacket or a compressed powder molded into a bullet that shatter upon impact but it effective against soft tissue (People). 0 -
We are revisiting the obsolete 32WSL which shot a 165gr bullet at about the speed of sound. It was pretty much the 30 cal carbine case but with a heavy bullet and was not successful.
The 30 carbine has almost twice the energy as a 30 cal 165 or 220 grain bullet at subsonic speed.
High velocity with a frangible bullet like the Glazer Safety Slug, known as cannister in the Civil War, would give the shallow penetration but probably wouldn't do much on the other side of a windshield.0 -
Why not just put a BB in the 308 HP? Then load it down to about 1850fps with the 165gr bullet.
The BB will help penetrate your window, while starting some really good expansion to prevent it blowing through your perp.
So what if it takes 2 shots to completely disembowel him/her? The first one will really get their attention, since it should stop about 13" into a torso after passing through a windshield two feet away.
Just curious though, where does all this misinformation about what "the Israelis" do come from? Some of it is hilarious, but some is downright hazardous if believed and acted upon by not-so-knowledgeable folks.
If you know it all; you must have been listening.WEAR EAR PROTECTION!0 -
The round of choice for LE tactical teams who desire low penetration .223/5.56 rounds for their entry weapons is the Hornady TAP (Tactical Application Police) cartridge. I've witnessed testing done with this round against mock-ups of interior and exterior residential walls and it definitely gives lower penetration. It will completely penetrate a standard interior wall made from sheetrock but will most often be stopped cold by the second wall. Both GI M193 and M855 rounds will sail right through more than one such wall.
If I'm not mistaken this is the same stuff as their V-Max hunting ammunition. By Hornady putting the magic "Tactical" label on this ammunition they can price it higher.0
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