what is considered antique
[?] is a Krag 1898 30-40 springfield considered an antique firearm and can it be sold and bought by an unlicensed person?????? the rules were kinda unclear to me[:(]
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quote:Originally posted by FireChaser
[?] is a Krag 1898 30-40 springfield considered an antique firearm and can it be sold and bought by an unlicensed person?????? the rules were kinda unclear to me[:(]
It depends when it was manufactured. Firearms manufactured in 1898 or earlier are considered antiques. Model year does not count. I believe serial numbers below 152670 were manufactured in 1898. Do not, however, take this number as gospel.0 -
Weapons made PRIOR to 1898 are antique. If your Krag was made in '98, it requires paperwork.
The model 98 Mauser rifle is the reason for this particular year being chosen.
Sorry this post isn't two pages long guys! I added the Mauser stuff just to lengthen it for the power reader who wants every bit of information.
[:o)]0 -
so i would just be smart to sell to licensed dealer the FFL way i mean 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Weapons made PRIOR to 1898 are antique. If your Krag was made in '98, it requires paperwork.
The model 98 Mauser rifle is the reason for this particular year being chosen.
Sorry this post isn't two pages long guys! I added the Mauser stuff just to lengthen it for the power reader who wants every bit of information.
[:o)]
27 CFR 178.11 defines an antique firearm as one manufactured IN or before 18980 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Weapons made PRIOR to 1898 are antique. If your Krag was made in '98, it requires paperwork.
The model 98 Mauser rifle is the reason for this particular year being chosen.
[:o)]
You apparently know not of what you speak! You are incorrect on your "Antique" status date. ALL Firearms made prior to 1 January 1899 are antiques, and the 98 Mauser rifle had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Feds selecting the January 1st, 1899 cut-off date. The date was selected more for it being the transition time between black powder and modern smokeless powder.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
quote:Originally posted by FireChaser
so i would just be smart to sell to licensed dealer the FFL way i mean
Not necessarily... your Springfield Krag is classified as a Curio & Relic arm, and it hasn't been determined (yet) when yours was made. On the earlier Krags, the year of manufacture was stamped on the upper left side of the action.
I will also add, the sales between private parties do not require any paperwork (with the exception of a few states that have added their own draconian laws/regulations above and beyond the Federal requirements).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
I appreciate LOTS of detail, IF you know what you are talking about.
My heros have always killed cowboys.0 -
hahahahahahhahahaaa, Yep, prior to 31 December 1898 it's an antique!
Bert, there are NO absolutes in the real world (Except that MK84 SUS coming down the sail). The GCA was passed in '68. To say the '98 Mauser played no part in the date chosen is wrong. The French LeBel in 8mm SMOKELESS came out in 1886. Why suppose the year chosen was not 1900, the new century?
Now boys, you don't see me x'ing out my previous post do you? There seems to be way too much back biting. This stuff is supposed to be fun. I realize not everyone collects the same thing or even collects weapons at all. Far too many post seem concerned with only what something is worth. I guess a snide answer would be "Whatever it takes to get it out of your grubby little mitts".
As far as I know, nobody pays anyones else's bills on here. Approval or disapproval from someone else is not my concern nor care. If I make a wrong answer as this was, big deal. I'll correct it and I still have my birthday. When I give an answer, I'm trying to help someone with my (sometimes) imperfect knowledge. I don't need to impress anyone with the vast expertise I do have about my chosen area.
Now, back to business.0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
hahahahahahhahahaaa, Yep, prior to 31 December 1898 it's an antique!
Bert, there are NO absolutes in the real world (Except that MK84 SUS coming down the sail). The GCA was passed in '68. To say the '98 Mauser played no part in the date chosen is wrong. The French LeBel in 8mm SMOKELESS came out in 1886. Why suppose the year chosen was not 1900, the new century?
You still have it wrong... if the firearm in question was made exactly on 31 December 1898, it is still an ANTIQUE... period. And that is an ABSOLUTE (as are most Federal firearms laws). You are one hard-headed fellow. If you don't believe me, call the BATFE.
As for you, or any of those other P3 weenies ever finding and dropping a MK84 on a Trident SSBN, you have NEVER been capable of finding one of us until we either stick a periscope out of the water so that you can see the wake and get a radar fix, or until we shoot a green smoke flare. I operated out the Bangor WA submarine base for nearly 15 years, and we played lots of games (training OPs) with the NAS Whidbey P3 pukes... they were clueless! Good thing for them that the Russian boats were noisy.
The actual 1 January 1899 date was arbitrarily selected... there is no written documentation that specifically relates the reason for that date, so anything that you or I say about why that date was selected is an educated guess. I personally primarily deal with antique or C & R firearms, and have had been involved in several discussions about this same topic with other collectors of same, and my earlier statement is the consensus that we arrived at.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Bert,
Actually, without augmentation, they are very hard. The couple of times we did detect US SSBN's were accidents and we had to discontinue prosecution of the real world primary target and leave station. The briefing never mentioned US assets in the area. An SSQ-62 sometimes was involved. (Then of course, we landed, collected our per diem, got a case of beer and chased women all the while wishing the bubbleheads were with us. NOT!)
As to the weapons, you miss my point. What kind of legal case for a weapon two numbers off what the factory says was made at years end in 1898? We all know that factory records are sometimes ballpark.
Both of these senarios validate there are no absolutes.
"What's it all mean Mr. Wizard?"0 -
Guys I hate to break it to you, but the date of manufacturer is only part of the determination as to whether a firmearm is an antique. If you read CFR 27 closely, it states the definition of an antique is:
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any
firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica
(1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade.
The important part here is (1)... using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition...." Now I realize that the way this section is written, any normal person would say that subsection (1) only applies to replicas. Unfortunately, that isn't the way the BATF has interpreted it. Several agents have repeatedly and insistently told me that it applies to all firearms. Consequently, because 30-40 Krag is "centerfire fixed ammunition," which you can still buy at the local gun shop, no matter how old your Krag rifle, it can't be an defined as an antique according to current regulations.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sck
Guys I hate to break it to you, but the date of manufacturer is only part of the determination as to whether a firmearm is an antique. If you read CFR 27 closely, it states the definition of an antique is:
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any
firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica
(1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade.
The important part here is (1)... using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition...." Now I realize that the way this section is written, any normal person would say that subsection (1) only applies to replicas. Unfortunately, that isn't the way the BATF has interpreted it. Several agents have repeatedly and insistently told me that it applies to all firearms. Consequently, because 30-40 Krag is "centerfire fixed ammunition," which you can still buy at the local gun shop, no matter how old your Krag rifle, it can't be an defined as an antique according to current regulations.
I'm sorry, but the ammunition restriction only applies to replicas of antiques and not to the antiques themselves. The opinions of individual agents, particularly those not specializing in the firearms area, are frequently wrong. The regulation is very clear in this matter and I cannot understand how anyone could say otherwise. The Technical Branch of BATF in Washington (The ones who write the regulation) also says that the ammunition clause only applies to replicas.0
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