Help with history please
Today my history instructor said that U.S. soldiers used "semi-automatic" guns to quell a labor riot in the 1870's. After class I asked her about this and she admitted ignorance concerning firearms. Of course she had to punish me for catching her mistake by asking me to research what weapons the troops did use on the rioters. I suggested perhaps Henry rifles or Gatling guns, but I'm not really sure. Any history buffs here that can help me out?
Remember Ruby Ridge.
Remember Ruby Ridge.
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The Gatling gun was introduced in war in the latter half of 1864. So yeah they could have used it. 0 -
Hello Henry,
U.S. Soldiers of the 1870s primarily used Springfield Trapdoor 45-70s (a single-shot rifle), and Colt revolvers. Some of them did carry Henry repeaters or maybe even a Spencer or Sharps carbine, and not all of the revolvers were Colts (a few Remingtons, Smith & Wessons, and other manufacturers of the time).
As for what exactly they used to quell a riot... who knows for sure (unless you can find specific written text about the riot in question that contains that kind of detail), but I would bet that a least some of them were carrying a good old fashioned double barrel shotgun. You can tell your "teacher" that true semi-auotmatic small arm weapons were not in use until early in the 20th century.
Also, please pass this message on to her from me... STOP spouting her biased opinions in a classroom, and properly research and prepare for each topic she intends to teach! (and I do have a teaching certificate)
As for you, continue to question (in a respectful manner) any and all things that you do not understand, or believe to be true. That is how an intelligent person educates oneself.
Good luck with your report,
Bert Hartman0 -
Starting in 1873 the standard US service rifle was the Springfield Model 1873 "Trapdoor" rifle which remained in service until the the .30-40 Krag entered the picture in 1892. At that time the Trapdoors were sent down to the reserve forces-- they saw service in Cuba. Prior to 1873 I beleive that our military was using the 1870/71 .50 cal Rolling Block rifles in seperate Navy and Army versions. This is not my area of expertise and I plead for other GB members to offer help on this Rolling Block subject.
There were no semi automatic rifles in service anywhere in the world in the 1870's (none had yet been developed that would function reliably) and none at all with the US Military. The very first successful semi automatic military rifle was the Mexican designed Mondragon patented in 1904 and adopted by Mexico in 1911. The first tests of semi automatic rifles by our own military began before the start of WWI when the Bang (named after the designer Soren Hansen Bang of Denmark) was tested by the army in 1911. the results were far from satisfactory and Bang kept at it as late as 1927 with up dated versions. There were nearly a dozen other semi automatics tested during this WWI period and all were failures. Only the Browning Automatic Rifle (actually a light machinegun) was a success and was adopted in 1918 and continued to serve for another 40+ years. The M1 Garand was adopted in 1936 and became the first semi automatic service rifle adopted by our military. HEY, you are the one who is supposed to be doing the research...I already know all of this stuff!
Mark T. Christian0 -
Henery--Your history instructor may have been thinking of
the Gatling gun.
Bill0 -
quote:Posted by Bert H. - Also, please pass this message on to her from me... STOP spouting her biased opinions in a classroom, and properly research and prepare for each topic she intends to teach! (and I do have a teaching certificate)
I have to admit here that perhaps I have shaded the good doctor with a more liberal slant than she actually projects in the classroom. The point she was making was that our government used deadly force against U.S. citizens. She certainly did not dwell on this; it was just one piece of information in an hour lecture. The anachronism slipped in there because she was ad-libbing rather than referring to her notes. I think the fact that she asked me to explain it reflects a desire to be accurate. I plan on sending her the URL to this thread so please keep the liberal bashing to a minimum.
Remember Ruby Ridge.Dr. R - just kidding about being "punished."0 -
Yeah, as usual Mr. Christian is on the money. The FIRST semi-auto rifle was the Mondragon. 
Go Army Beat Navy
IF you wanna have fun join the cavalry0 -
Here is my communication with my instructor:
On 9/16/2003 7:56:09 PM Henry O'Reilly wrote:
Dr. R,
I consulted with an online firearms community concerning what guns might have been used by the military in the 1870`s. The consensus of opinion agreed with me that if an unusual gun was used it would be the Gatling Gun, which was developed in 1864. A Gatling Gun was very heavy and was mounted on a small carriage. It had multiple barrels that rotated by a crank to line up with the sights and firing mechanism.
I stretched the truth just a little when I asked my question. Here is the URL if you are interested:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=73840
Henry O`Reilly
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She replied:
Henry: Prior to your message, I consulted the Encyclopedia Britannica about the Gatling (because you mentioned it)--I can show you what it said. I then went back to my source which described the arms as "semi-automatic machine guns" and I thought that certainly a lay person could read the description of a gatling and think "semi automatic machine gun" was an appropriate term. If you, and your firearms experts, are saying that this is a mistake, let me know and I will drop a note to the author to correct in future editions.
Thanks for following up of this. I shall rely on you during discussions of WWI and WWII armaments to keep me on the straight and narrow.
See you Thursday.
Dr. R
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Remember Ruby Ridge.0 -
Try this one out: There is an obscure passage (I JUST LOVE THIS STUFF!) from the Report to the Commission of the United States on the International Conference of the Hague regarding the work of the first commission and its sub committee. Our representitive was a certain Capt. William Cozier, Ordnance Dept., USA. Capt. Cozier later became General Cozier and was the head of Ordnance for many years and had the final say so on many famous US military weapons adopted by our armed forces.
On 31 July, 1899 Capt. Cozier dispatched the results of a proposed prohibition on so called "automatic muskets" then under developement among the major world powers, although none had progessed beyond the testing stages and none had even approched the point of being adopted. States in favor of the proposed ban included: Belguim, Denmark, Spain, Holland, Persia (Iran), Russia, Siam (Thailand), Switzerland, and Bulgaria. States opposed to the proposed prohibition were: The United States (can you imagine if Bill Clinton was President at the time!), Germany, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Great Britian, and Sweden-Norway (then unified). Six nations (including France) abstained from voting. The proposal failed to be adopted but was to be regarded as open for further consideration. Of course history will show that the developement of "automatic muskets" has continued into the twenty first century and shows no signs of ending. Perhaps this post will help you earn your PHd.
Mark T. Christian0 -
I think somebody already wrote a biography of Crozier, but there may be enough for a ph.d. there somewhere. I know that I wrote an article about him and his conflict with Lewis that resulted in the U.S. going into the trenches with a French piece of junk. Couldn't find anyone interested enough to publish it.
You mentioned in your original post the date of 1870s, but not exactly what strike your teacher had in mind. The bloodiest strike of the 1870s was probably the General Strike of 1877. President Hays sent federal troops to Martinsburg, West Virginia after strikers had thrown back state troop. The death toll here was at least 9. A few days later Hays sent federal troops again, this time to Pittsburgh, where the death toll reached at least 26. Yes, in both cases the federal troops employed Gatlin Guns. Now for the important part. Why is she mentioning all this? All of the neat facts in the world are nothing more than trivia if you do not make them relevant. What is her point? Simply that the big bad government turned deadly force against the workers? Well, if that is the point, then there are better examples such as the Homestead Massacre of 1892, the Pullman Strike of 1894 and the Ludlow Massacre of 1907 (?), frequently referred to as Bloody Ludlow. In the case of Ludlow, the government troops did use machine guns, even an airplane and armoured cars. Naturally, there are countless smaller, less well known incidents in which heavy firepower was used against workers such as the Miners Strike of 1904 (?) in south eastern Ohio. However, your teacher may have been trying to make another point. (Although if she is just your average college academic she might not realize it.) The result of the labor unrest of the 1870s was that many state legislatures wrote and passed "anti-conspiracy" laws. The intent here was to give the state power to step in before violence erupted and punish those responsible after violence had occured. In that content, these "anti-conspiracy" laws were 1870s response to terrorism and the predecessor of the current Patriot Act. Now there is a dissertation topic!!! Not only will it get you published, but if you become the authority in the field, it will get you on every tv news program on every network at least once a week.0 -
The first recorded instance of the employment of Gatling Guns in riots was during the New York Draft Riots of 1863.
In July, 1877 during the Erie Railroad Strike, the Gatling Gun Detachment of the 23rd Regiment from Brooklyn played an important role in subduing a mob of some 2,000 strikers at Hornellsville, New York.
British forces used Gatlings in the Port Said Riot of April 29, 1883.
The Kearney riots in San Francisco in May, 1883 were quelled by the presence of the police with a Gatling.
I have seen pictures, (drawings) of a Gatling being used in a riot, but not sure of that source right now.
Richard Gatling conceived the idea for the Gatling Gun in the summer of 1861. A prototype gun, made late in that year was demonsrated in Indianapolis early in 1862. Patent no 36,836 was granted Gatling on November 4, 1862.
Later patents with improvements followed later.0 -
Thanks to one and all for your kind assistance.
Remember Ruby Ridge.0 -
For Henry OREILLY,
Did she mention who led the troops? If I am not mistaken, I believe General Winfield Scott Hancock, hero of the Union, was one of those tasked with suppressing these Union riots or protests depending on your perspective.0
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