Colt 1911 markings help needed!
G'morning folks....and thanks in advance! I have a 1911 Colt .45 with the letters "WB" in a small box stamped on several locations on the gun. The serial number is 8091xx and the pistol has, instead of a standard narrow hammer, more of a beavertail hammer that I feel is the original hammer. The pistol is marked U.S. Property and Colt. Any help on the WB...hammer...value (NRA good) would be appreciated!
Jim
GunHawke
"They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't!" J.B. Books
Jim
GunHawke
"They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't!" J.B. Books
0
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First of all, the letters "WB" stamped on a 1911 style pistol marked U.S. Property would indicate it was inspected in 1941 by Col. Waldemar Brogerg. His "stamp" would appear possibly on the receiver or frame, on the grips or buttstocks as evidence of his inspection of this arm.
This is where the information you furnished starts to leave a big open hole. Your gun would be from the 1941 era as indicated by its inspection marks. During the Second World War, Colt's production of the 1911 A1 was assisted by Singer, Ithaca, Remington Rand, and Union Switch and Signal. There was a total of over 1,800, 000 pistols manufactured in total by all of these companies. There were a few exceptions but all of these guns "looked alike" with a Parkerized finish, flat-sided hammers, checkered plastic grips and the Model 1911A1 configuration. None of the exceptions indicate a hammer such as yours was a factory installed item....... This would indicate it has been added at some time for some reason......
Now, we get to the biggest problem......Serial No. 8091XX DOES NOT appear in any of the several manufacturer's sequences of serial numbers. This could indicate your gun is one that is made up of parts acquired from several sources and would initially indicate it is what is called a "parts gun" and is not an authentic specimen. Further research would be necessary to prove or to dis-prove this being the case. Without seeing the gun and being able to closely examine it, I cannot offer any more information.
As a side note.....Ithica comes the closest on your serial number range with 856405 to 916404 being assigned and used by them in 1943. Plainly, your serial number is lower than the beginning of this sequence.........and you say your gun is "Colt marked" leaving the question I have already referred to....... Value would be impossible to assign until the authenticity of the gun could be determined with certainty. If it is determined to be a "parts gun" value would be that of a "shooter" and would be determined by what a person wanting a 1911 type shooter would pay. Good Luck! This is the best I can do with my information I have available.
Contrary to what you may have been told, "Green Jello is a Side Dish, NOT Dessert!"0 -
I think that there may be a problem with this gun, but for a different reason than Paul.
First, according to S. Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values, serial range 801001-856100 was assigned to Colt. Since I have seen #839022, and it is all original & a Colt, I believe that this is correct.
As for problems, I would expect this gun to be marked M1911A1, not M1911. I would also expect the WB marking to only be found on the left side of the frame behind the trigger; I question its appearance on several locations. (A proof P will be found on several locations.)
Colts before & after that serial # have the wide hammer you described; it should have a checkered pattern, as should the slide stop & trigger.
You might want to check the markings on the barrel (after removing it from the gun), & check to see if the serial # appears on the slide under the plate surrounding the firing.
As Paul said, we really don't enough information to place a value on it. We REALLY need to know if it has been refinished. For now, though, I would estimate its value in the $500-$1,500 range.
Neal0 -
If you email me at gordarms@msn.com I can send you some pictures & info on this serial# range. 0 -
Aha! So far so good. The fault does lie here at my end. I wrote the forum note after I was away from the gun and not able to be dead on accurate.
Because you gentlemen have done some serious work looking into the info I gave you, I will have the gun back within a hour or so and will send along more info as referenced in your responses.
Thanks again and I'll be back..........
Jim
GunHawke
"They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't!" J.B. Books0 -
More info....there is only the one WB stamping on the left side of the pistol below the slide release. There is a P next to the mag release button. The pistol IS stamped 1911A1. The ser # is 809180. The pistol wears very good brown plastic grips. The backstrap hammer and trigger ARE all checkered and the barrel has a G stamped on it. I did not remove the barrel all the way.
Thanks, if this helps!
Jim
GunHawke
"They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't!" J.B. Books0 -
Now we're getting somewhere.
The reason I said that the barrel needs to be removed is because it should be blue, with COLT .45 AUTO stamped near the lug (at the 7:00 position), P stamped on the lug, and S or G stamped on the bottom of the barrel in front of the lug.
To check for original finish, look for burnishing in the WB and the ordinance seal (which is on the right side of the frame opposite the WB). Burnishing is bare metal which was exposed when these markings were stamped after the gun was finished. You will need a 10X magnifier, like a jewelers loupe. Look within the depressions left by the markings; if the gun has been refinished, these depressions will be filled entirely with parkerizing.
Also, rather than call the finish "good", please estimate the percentage of finish (a number between 0 & 100), & describe any damage or rust.
Neal0 -
Hello Neal,
You help has been excellent!! The Colt indeed has the Colt 45 auto stamping on the barrel along with the G and the P. The W.B. has a bare metal shine to it but I cannot find a like burnishing on the right side of the frame. As far as % goes....I have trouble with this item. The pistol is almost completely patina in finish but has only a very minor freckling on the right side. All the stamping is sharp and the grips excellent. The bore is VERY shiney and sharp. The magazine is marked Colt 45 Auto.
Tell me what you think Neal....I'm going to list the gun on GB and you have been a great asset!!
Jim Michaels
GunHawke
"They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't!" J.B. Books0 -
It does sound like it is substantially original. Burnishing is difficult to see on the ordinance seal, as this is often lightly struck.
While patina is good on antique furniture, it's bad on guns. That's especially true if yours has a brownish color, which is rust. Some collectors like honest old guns, even when there is little original finish remaining. Posting it on GB sounds like a good idea; you might get close to the middle of the range I gave above. Be sure to post high quality digital photos, as they will get you higher bids.
Good luck. Neal0
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