trivia question about semi auto invention
which came first, the chicken or the egg? or, which got it first? the military or civilians? in other words, did semi autos exist in the civilian market first?; or, was the creation of civilian semi autos the result of a military need? thanks for the answers!
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.
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The egg!!! Or was it the chicken??? I don't think there is a definite distinction as to 'first'. There may be exceptions but the basic ideas and early development of arms inventions start with civilians. Also probably with few exceptions those civilians had their eye or hopes pinned on military acceptance. The picture is clouded further by definition of first versus first successful, and what defines successful. Borchardt and Mauser were the first to achieve any significant production and of those two, only Mauser got into the big numbers. Many improvements stemmed from within military sources, the Garand rifle for example but it was far from being the first semi automatic. Others will have a lot more to say on this subject. Hope this helps. 0 -
I believe John Browning converted a lever action to semi-auto after he noticed a block that was near a muzzle went flying across the room when the gun was fired.
Possibly one of the first?0 -
John Browning was out shooting the lever gun with his brother when he noted the muzzle blast was moving grass. he got the idea of gas operation and they hurried back to the shop and rigged up a lever gun with a flapper at the end of the barrel. The gas coming out the end worked the flapper that was connected to a long rod that went back to the lever and cycled the action. I don't have my book with me to look up the date but it was in the later 1800's. Browning's semi auto pistols were also developed on his own long before the military was interested in them late 1800's also or very early 1900's.
I have the exact dates if interested let me know.
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ok, we've established that semi's were invented in the civilian sector. we could sorta have figured that out simply due to the fact that has anyone ever heard of the govt marketing their own product? the govt always buys ideas from civilians and applies them to a need. thus my question gets a little refined now. Q: was the semi auto 'marketed' for public use and the military saw it and said: 'gee, we gotta have one of them!' OR was the semi auto invented for the military and the civilians said, 'gee i gotta have one of those!' i/e: the german luger...was it made at the german govts request for a semi or was it already created for hunters and the german govt said 'we want that?' btw...we all know a connecticut inventor made the luger, right? reason i ask is if we look at any gun book, semis are practically non exisitant save a few browning designs prior to ww2, (A-5, REM-11, etc..) can anyone name a pre ww2 semi auto rifle for the public? thanks for your inputs. 0 -
TWO SEMI-AUTO RIFLES.PRE WWII ARE THE REMINGTON 16 AND THE REMINGTON 24. WILL LET YOU KNOW IF I CAN REMEMBER ANY MORE
I WOULD RATHER BE DUCK HUNTING.0 -
Pistols
John Browning invented his first semi auto pistol in 1894-1895. There were several more models made by Browning (Colt) all of them for sale to the civialian market. JMB was convinced that the semi auto would be the military gun of the future and in 1902 he convinced Colt to market the .38 caliber Military Model. This gun then attracted the attetnion of the US Army Ordinance Dept. The study that resulted concerned the lack of power of the .38 caliber round in the Philippines and lead to JMB designing the 45ACP round and pistol which was first presented in 1906 to the military.
Rifles
The BAR was develeped in 1917 for the military though it did see civialian use.
Browning developed a .22 caliber semi auto rifle in 1912 for civilian use. It was made by FN and Remington as the model 24.
In 1900 Browning developed the a semi-auto high power rifle it ws made by Remington adn first appeared in 1906 as the Model 8 AutoLoader. FN also made it starting in 1910. It was in.25, .30,.32, or .35 caliber
shotgun
The Browning A5 was developed and made in 1902 for the civilian market. First guns were made by FN in 1902 and one of the first models was fired 40,000 rounds as a test.
In 1895 the US Navy had adapoted Brownings gas operated machine gun.
So I would say all of the semi-autos were first developed for the civilian market except for the machine guns.
There were other semi autos coming out of Europe for the civilian market but none matched the success of the Browning designs.
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bingo. it would appear correct, that the early gun world, for the most part, revolved around the one genius, john browning. great thread. thank for the input! ok, now to tie this into the thread where the military's desire to purchase a semi auto to replace the bolt actions. theres another thread on this site that made mention that complaints were being made that soldiers couldnt rapid fire from a prone poistion and they wanted a semi to eliminate 2 hands required to operate a gun. sounds like the garand and tehe johnson were first, right or wrong? lets use up all 10 posts if we can! 0 -
I would say yes the Garand and Johnson were the first infantry issue semi auto main rifle.
Unless you count the BAR that was adopted by the Army in 1917 and used in WW1.
Depends if you consider the BAR as a an individual weapon. It was not issued to every man whereas the Garand for example was the main infantry weapon.
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would you all say the market expansion into semi autos in the civilian sector was the result of the war and the exposure of semi's to troops wanting them back home?; or, was it caused by the patent expirations on brownings guns, opening the market up to everyone, thus the huge creation of semi's in the late 40's and 50's? 0 -
MONDRAGON 0 -
Don't forget the Pederson device for the Springfield '03, though not issue, it was a working semi-auto in the late teens/early twenties. 0 -
Wasn't the Browning lever conversion a FULL-AUTO, not a semi?
As Jodi stated above, the Mondragon rifle was a very early military semi auto (pre 1900). FWIW, The Garand used several features of the Mondragon gas system.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
Manuel Mondragon was a Mexican officer at the time he designed and built the rifle that bears his name, to my knowledge, his was the first self loading rifle adopted for military service, it was Germanys first choice for aircraft, pilot and co-pilot were equipped with a 7MM.Mauser chambered Mondragon, sometimes fitted with a 30 round magazine, although being made by SIG the rifle was un-reliable and when other weapons became available it was dropped from frontline service. There were some civilian models produced, but the rifle was developed for military use. 0 -
Correct Tailgunner it was a full auto. It was a civilian gun and it was made into a full auto that was the invention of the gas operated gun. I included it because it was the start of so many military full auto as well as civilian semi auto guns. I would still say the civilian semi auto came first though.
There were also some less than sucesfull semi autos made in Europe that were never widely distribruted due to not being practical or dependable if I remember right.
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