Clarification/correction of jromani's Vintage Colt
The 10-post limit is sometimes frustrating on the "Experts" forum. I came back to see what else had been added to jromani's original thread and found it closed, but noticed the following statement:
"From My Experience: There was no relief cut behind the trigger on the original 1911, the "Government Model" did not appear until 1946 & on 1911-A1's Commercial Model Slides. Prior to this; the 1911's
Military had "Model of 1911 U.S.Army"."
Of course there is no relief cut behind the trigger on the Model 1911 and early commercial Government Models of the same vintage. The relief cuts are a major feature of the "Improved Model of 1911," which was authorized in 1920 and which became known as the "Pistol, Automatic, Caliber .45, M1911A1" in 1926.
I am not sure what Mr. Perkins intended by the statement "Government Model" did not appear until 1946 & on 1911-A1's Commercial Model Slides. Prior to this; the 1911's Military had "Model of 1911 U.S.Army", but to me he is confusing commercial and military markings and nomenclature. I think what he means about the commercial pistols is that the commercial slides were not marked with "Government Model" until Post-War. Before that, as on jromani's pistol, those words were stamped on the frame. The words "Government Model" never appeared on any military contract pistol, and that may be what Mr. Perkins is trying to say by the mixed military/commercial nomenclature reference to "1911-A1's Commercial Model Slides." Nevertheless, what Mr. Perkins' statement has to do with jropmani's 1919 pistol, I do not know. Likewise, the mention about the military-overstamp commercial pistols has nothing to do with jromani's pistol because it is not an overstamp.
In rereading the thread, I also noticed an earlier post where Mr. Perkins mentions looking under the firing pin stop for a serial number on the slide presumably matching the frame. Pistols of that vintage do not have the serial number under the firing pin stop.
martzkj@msn.com adds a post script to his post saying "P.S. is the correct mag two tone." I am not sure what he meant by what appears to be a question in form but not punctuation, unless my statement about not being sure if jromani's pistol should have a commercial finish lanyard ring magazine, or a commercial finish non-lanyard ring magazine, was unclear. Any factory magazine of that era was a temperline ("two tone") magazine, whether with a lanyard ring or without. I am not sure just when the commercial pistols began to be shipped without lanyard ring magazines, but I think it was about that time. (Military pistols began to be shipped without lanyard ring magazines in 1915, but my 1917 vintage commercial Government Model has a lanyard ring magazine, and the commercial and military magazine change probably did not coincide.) If it were mine, I would look for a commercial finish lanyard ring magazine for it, but settle for a commercial finish non-lanyard ring magazine. Apparently, the pistol is to be sold so I would sell it as is, and mention that the magazine is not original.
I might describe the pistol in an advertisement something like this:
Heading text: Colt commercial Government Model (M1911-type), 1919 vintage
Description text: Outstanding Colt commercial Government Model (M1911-type) in the 1919 serial number range, all original except magazine, excellent original blue finish showing minor high edge wear and handling marks, excellent bore (state the correct condition of the bore if it is not excellent), excellent original "diamond" stocks, see pictures for more information
This is one of the nicest-looking early Governmemt Models I have seen for sale (potentially) on these boards in years. Therefore when Mr. Perkins says, "If you haven't purchased this Pistol, pass it by," I cannot imagine what he means. Perhaps his standards are higher than mine, and he collects only new-in-the-box specimens. If I were a buyer for a mere mortal pistol of this type instead of a deified NIB, I certainly would not pass it by.
In closing, while the Blue Book is a wonderful thing and containes a lot of wonderful information, the information on many Colts is incomplete, misleading or incorrect. (Do not get me started on the "issue" business apparently created by the Blue Book.) It is not an ideal place to learn about most guns because it is intended to be a guide only, and not a good place to get information for a detailed discussion about the correctness of a particular pistol.
jromani, let us know when you put your beautiful pistol up for sale, and where, so we can watch and perhaps bid if we get the fever!
"From My Experience: There was no relief cut behind the trigger on the original 1911, the "Government Model" did not appear until 1946 & on 1911-A1's Commercial Model Slides. Prior to this; the 1911's
Military had "Model of 1911 U.S.Army"."
Of course there is no relief cut behind the trigger on the Model 1911 and early commercial Government Models of the same vintage. The relief cuts are a major feature of the "Improved Model of 1911," which was authorized in 1920 and which became known as the "Pistol, Automatic, Caliber .45, M1911A1" in 1926.
I am not sure what Mr. Perkins intended by the statement "Government Model" did not appear until 1946 & on 1911-A1's Commercial Model Slides. Prior to this; the 1911's Military had "Model of 1911 U.S.Army", but to me he is confusing commercial and military markings and nomenclature. I think what he means about the commercial pistols is that the commercial slides were not marked with "Government Model" until Post-War. Before that, as on jromani's pistol, those words were stamped on the frame. The words "Government Model" never appeared on any military contract pistol, and that may be what Mr. Perkins is trying to say by the mixed military/commercial nomenclature reference to "1911-A1's Commercial Model Slides." Nevertheless, what Mr. Perkins' statement has to do with jropmani's 1919 pistol, I do not know. Likewise, the mention about the military-overstamp commercial pistols has nothing to do with jromani's pistol because it is not an overstamp.
In rereading the thread, I also noticed an earlier post where Mr. Perkins mentions looking under the firing pin stop for a serial number on the slide presumably matching the frame. Pistols of that vintage do not have the serial number under the firing pin stop.
martzkj@msn.com adds a post script to his post saying "P.S. is the correct mag two tone." I am not sure what he meant by what appears to be a question in form but not punctuation, unless my statement about not being sure if jromani's pistol should have a commercial finish lanyard ring magazine, or a commercial finish non-lanyard ring magazine, was unclear. Any factory magazine of that era was a temperline ("two tone") magazine, whether with a lanyard ring or without. I am not sure just when the commercial pistols began to be shipped without lanyard ring magazines, but I think it was about that time. (Military pistols began to be shipped without lanyard ring magazines in 1915, but my 1917 vintage commercial Government Model has a lanyard ring magazine, and the commercial and military magazine change probably did not coincide.) If it were mine, I would look for a commercial finish lanyard ring magazine for it, but settle for a commercial finish non-lanyard ring magazine. Apparently, the pistol is to be sold so I would sell it as is, and mention that the magazine is not original.
I might describe the pistol in an advertisement something like this:
Heading text: Colt commercial Government Model (M1911-type), 1919 vintage
Description text: Outstanding Colt commercial Government Model (M1911-type) in the 1919 serial number range, all original except magazine, excellent original blue finish showing minor high edge wear and handling marks, excellent bore (state the correct condition of the bore if it is not excellent), excellent original "diamond" stocks, see pictures for more information
This is one of the nicest-looking early Governmemt Models I have seen for sale (potentially) on these boards in years. Therefore when Mr. Perkins says, "If you haven't purchased this Pistol, pass it by," I cannot imagine what he means. Perhaps his standards are higher than mine, and he collects only new-in-the-box specimens. If I were a buyer for a mere mortal pistol of this type instead of a deified NIB, I certainly would not pass it by.
In closing, while the Blue Book is a wonderful thing and containes a lot of wonderful information, the information on many Colts is incomplete, misleading or incorrect. (Do not get me started on the "issue" business apparently created by the Blue Book.) It is not an ideal place to learn about most guns because it is intended to be a guide only, and not a good place to get information for a detailed discussion about the correctness of a particular pistol.
jromani, let us know when you put your beautiful pistol up for sale, and where, so we can watch and perhaps bid if we get the fever!
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FYI....according to the 2003 Standard Catalog of Firearms, the lanyard loop magazine was furnished until about C90000....but knowing Colt, that probably varied considerably, depending on what they had on hand at the time.
It also values this pistol, in Excellent condition at $3200.
I certainly agree that this one of the most beautiful early Gov't Models I've seen in many years.0 -
Perhaps "WE" should let Time tell the answer? I have little doubt this conversation will re-appear in time. [;)]
Ronnie G. Perkins0 -
Hi judge, I wasn't sure if the temperline was what is commonly called the two tone mag. I wanted to be sure before I posted this info for jromani's gun. Gun list has Colt Prewar commerical 2-tone mags for $44.95. Forrest 888-866-7603. I think this seems like a very fair price for the mag. if needed. 0 -
I agree 100% with JudgeColt, in that the 10 post limit can be and is frustrating when a question of this importance is posted.
In defense of GunBroker though, they have to "police" it in some manner. It would be nice if the 10 post+ categories could be shifted to "Discussion". This would allow them to to be continued or disappear for lack of "further" discussion.
Although I am not an avid collector of 1911's, I am of Browning Hi-Powers and I've seen the 10 post "Cut-Off" - stop some very interesting and "informative" dialect in regards to the Hi-Power, in the past.
And, as to hoping that the conversation will "re-appear"- IN TIME;
that is not much reassurance to those who are looking for answers to
this very important and "specific" question.
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NRA Benefactor Life Member0 -
I wonder what the "catch" is with the magazines Forrest is selling? I see that style of magazine bring over $100 on that big auction site. Myabe I can retire earlier if I buy magazines from Forrest and resell them at a big profit! 0 -
See my latest listing and I believe there are at least two of the Government Issue Mags to view. [^] (Hoping? I don't recall saying: "HOPING")
Ronnie G. Perkins0
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