Colt 45
HELP, I inherited what looks like a Colt 45 but the markings on it do not say COlt anywhere.
on the left side of the slide it says
"Fabrica Militarde Armas Portatiles-Rosarig"
"Sistema Colt Cal 11.25mm - Industria Argentina"
on the right side of the slide it says
"P.N.N. 110907"
can anyone please give me info on the history of this gun and the value
many thanks
Dave
on the left side of the slide it says
"Fabrica Militarde Armas Portatiles-Rosarig"
"Sistema Colt Cal 11.25mm - Industria Argentina"
on the right side of the slide it says
"P.N.N. 110907"
can anyone please give me info on the history of this gun and the value
many thanks
Dave
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Hi, Would appreciate expert opinion on a gun purchased (used) in 1975. Colt Mk IV 45 ACP. It has had gold and silver hand grips added. What would the experts believe this is worth? The only other ID I have on it is the serial number. Thanks, bj 0 -
Bluesteel;
Your's is an Argentine built copy of the Colt Government model. "Systema Colt" refers to the Colt patent from which they "borrowed" everything. They are usually of decent quality and pretty good shooters. They are of little collector value. They go for somewhere between $150 and $200 dollars at shows and gun shops here in my area. Hope this helps. The 11.25mm is the metric equivalent of the .45ACP, However, have the chamber and bore mic'ed to be certain of dementional campatability. Some of these have bores slightly oversized and accuracy suffers when standard .45 Cal. ball ammo is used.
Kill all the lawyers and the world will be much better for it.0 -
The Argentine Navy purchased 321 commercial Colt Government models (1911) in 1914, which were stamped MARINA ARGENTINA on the right side of the slide. In 1915 the government purchased 1,000 more (no navy stamp). These guns were numbered in the regular Colt commercial serial range, C2001 to C21000, and also marked with 1 - 1000 on the top of the slide. These guns are known as the Modelo 1916. An additional 400 were shipped in 1919 (C86790 to C116000).
In 1927 Colt got a contract for 10,000 more guns for the army. These were regular commercial Government Models in 1911A1 configuration. They were given a separate serial range, and marked on the right side of the slide EJERCITO ARGENTINO over COLT CAL. 45 MOD. 1927. Serial numbers 1-10,000 were stamped on the top of the slide, the barrel, and under the mainspring housing. They were built between July 1927 and February 1928 and bear Argentine inspector markings as well as Colt marks.
A license was granted shortly after WWII for the Argentine military to build the Model 1911A1 themselves. Except for markings and hard rubber stocks they are identical to the 1911A1. Parts interchangeability is the subject of some debate, and there may be some extremely small differences in parts dimensions resulting from transferring English unit of measure dimensions to metric. (In my experience, which is limited, parts are interchangeable.) Serial numbers ran from 10001 to 112000 and are found on the barrel, top and right side of the slide, right side of the receiver, under the mainspring housing and on the magazine floorplate. They were stamped EJERCITO ARGENTINO over SIST. COLT CAL. 11.25mm MOD. 1927 with the Argentine crest on the right side of the slide, and D.G.F.M - (F.M.A.P.) on the left. The caliber designation is the metric equivalent of .45 caliber. (Direccion Geemeral de Fabricaciones Militares - Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles) The guns were built at the military plant in Rosario.
Examples have been observed with Navy and Air Force markings, as well as Buenos Aires Police Department markings. There are also at least two variations in .22 LR caliber, using a floating chamber very similar to the Colt Ace. Whether these are military or police training guns, or later conversions of surplus guns for the Argentine commercial trade is disputed.
Typical collector standards apply. Original finish military guns with matching numbers and without import markings will bring a premium. US made guns are considered rare variations of the commercial Government Model and are valued accordingly. Argentine made guns, with a few exceptions, do not have this value, but nevertheless have a substantial collector following. Generally speaking, the Argentine made guns was manufactured to very high standards and are the equal in quality to the best military Colts. A nice gun, say 95%+ and matching, with no import marks, is a $350 -$400 gun around here.
redcedars0 -
Ooops! Double tap! 0 -
Redcedars has nailed it.
A little more info. The Argentine Systema Colt Modelo 1927's were a bit more than just Colt M1911A1 "copies". They were built under Colt license, on machinery supplied by Colt, with the line set up by Colt technicians. The quality of these guns (when new) was equivalent to the commercial (Hartford) Colts of that time.
These are fine guns. One reason the prices are so low is that you can buy arsenal refurbished Modelo 27's for around $300:
http://www.cruffler.com/JLD.html0 -
I don't normally add an "I agree" post to these threads due to the 10 post limit, but this one seems to be petering out anyway. So let me add that I should have said what Xracer said regarding the tooling, set up and overall quality of the Sistema Colts.
redcedars0 -
quote:Originally posted by redcedars
The Argentine Navy purchased 321 commercial Colt Government models (1911) in 1914, which were stamped MARINA ARGENTINA on the right side of the slide. In 1915 the government purchased 1,000 more (no navy stamp). These guns were numbered in the regular Colt commercial serial range, C2001 to C21000, and also marked with 1 - 1000 on the top of the slide. These guns are known as the Modelo 1916. An additional 400 were shipped in 1919 (C86790 to C116000).
In 1927 Colt got a contract for 10,000 more guns for the army. These were regular commercial Government Models in 1911A1 configuration. They were given a separate serial range, and marked on the right side of the slide EJERCITO ARGENTINO over COLT CAL. 45 MOD. 1927. Serial numbers 1-10,000 were stamped on the top of the slide, the barrel, and under the mainspring housing. They were built between July 1927 and February 1928 and bear Argentine inspector markings as well as Colt marks.
A license was granted shortly after WWII for the Argentine military to build the Model 1911A1 themselves. Except for markings and hard rubber stocks they are identical to the 1911A1. Parts interchangeability is the subject of some debate, and there may be some extremely small differences in parts dimensions resulting from transferring English unit of measure dimensions to metric. (In my experience, which is limited, parts are interchangeable.) Serial numbers ran from 10001 to 112000 and are found on the barrel, top and right side of the slide, right side of the receiver, under the mainspring housing and on the magazine floorplate. They were stamped EJERCITO ARGENTINO over SIST. COLT CAL. 11.25mm MOD. 1927 with the Argentine crest on the right side of the slide, and D.G.F.M - (F.M.A.P.) on the left. The caliber designation is the metric equivalent of .45 caliber. (Direccion Geemeral de Fabricaciones Militares - Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles) The guns were built at the military plant in Rosario.
Examples have been observed with Navy and Air Force markings, as well as Buenos Aires Police Department markings. There are also at least two variations in .22 LR caliber, using a floating chamber very similar to the Colt Ace. Whether these are military or police training guns, or later conversions of surplus guns for the Argentine commercial trade is disputed.
Typical collector standards apply. Original finish military guns with matching numbers and without import markings will bring a premium. US made guns are considered rare variations of the commercial Government Model and are valued accordingly. Argentine made guns, with a few exceptions, do not have this value, but nevertheless have a substantial collector following. Generally speaking, the Argentine made guns was manufactured to very high standards and are the equal in quality to the best military Colts. A nice gun, say 95%+ and matching, with no import marks, is a $350 -$400 gun around here.
redcedars0
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