Browning or Fabrique
Could someone please tell what the deal is with Fabrique Nationale DesArmes firearms relative to Brownings. Who made whose?
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FN produced Browning's weapons because Wichester would not give him what he believed he was entitled to. 0 -
Thanks, but now I'm really confused. What's Winchester got to do with it? and are they winchester models made by Fabrique? 0 -
In the case of handguns, Colt had the option of licensing of J.M. Browning's pistol designs for the North & South American markets. FN purchased the rights for Europe. Thus, you sometimes had both Colt and FN making the same pistols....for instance, the Model 1903 and the .25 Pocket Pistol (Baby Browning).
Browning designed many guns for Winchester for a flat licensing fee, but when he offered them his new semi-auto shotgun, he demanded a royalty arrangement, which Winchester refused. He offered it to FN, and they accepted. Thus the A5 was born. Later on, FN licensed Remington to produce a U.S. made version of the Auto-5.
Lately, FN has been making some of the Browning design lever action rifles....which they held the European rights for.0 -
John Moses Browning designed, patented and sold to Winchester the rights to produce many of the early Winchester designs. When Winchester tried to screw him, he contracted with FN make the rifles for him under his own name.
It's more a case of Winchester using Brownings design than FN making Winchesters.
I see XRacer has given you a good answer also.
Sorry XRacer, but your reply wasn't showing when I started my reply. (board glitch)
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
At the "Present" time,
FN (Fabrique Nationale) is making some of both: Winchester and
Browning, but in fact also "Owns" both companies.
FN is a Belgium owned company, which doesn't bode well
for the future of either company.
We "NEED" to get ownership back to a U.S. controlled company!
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Thank you all[:)] what about values of these FN's. are they generally equal or less than Browning or Winchester or Rem? or am I still discombobulated? Plads 0 -
Generally, in the US, Browning is more valuable than FN, FN is more valuable than Winchester and Remington. The Colt is a toss up. A fellow could easily spend a lifetime aquiring Browning's weapons and since perceptions change, this is a very general answer. I guess it just depends on what you like. 0 -
got it, Thanks for the help !!!!! 0 -
The GREAT "John M. Browning" (Gods Gift to us Gunzels) Never Produced but one Gun (1885 Single Shot). John made a couple thousand Prototypes, which he sold to Winchester (which had little Clue about Guns, but knew a Good Gun when he saw one), JM also sold rights to Remington, etc. The 1911 Was originally a 38 Super, but the Military liked a Larger caliber, (the Military had long favored the 45 caliber, if you missed the Indian and hit the horse, = they would still go down) and wanted it to be a "Fit All", John Browning worked with Springfield to make the First Prototype model of the 1911, 45 ACP, (mis-nomered; The Colt 45 ACP). Colt was one of a very few companys able to Produce these Fine Guns in Large Quantities: The Moro Uprising & WWI. Refinements of the 1911 became the 1911-A1 US Army Model.
FN Belgium had long been known for Quality, most Twist Wire and Fluid Steel Barrels were made in Belgium (even tho many High Quality Double Guns had English or American Names, take the forearm off and witness the Belgium Proof Marks) FN could align the Barrels to Point of Impact, and were the Premier Double Barrel Mfgs. Needless to say, Old John Moses was Impressed, as was most of the Gun World. John Decided to Produce His Own Line, but The American Mfgs. could not meet the Quality and Price of Fabrique National. One of (if not) the most Famous Shotgun ever: The Belgium Browning Auto 5.
Major Companys vied constantly for any New Patent, JM might register, Winchester started in the Clothing Business, being an Aggresive Investor, Winchester elected to Start a Gun, Tool, etc. Business. The Bulk of Winchester Fame is directly attributed to John Moses Browning.
FACTS OF LATE: FN Bid and won the AR-15 Rifle Contract, > But Mr. Lautenberg of Connecticut, lobbied to have the Nomenclature changed on the AR, to the M-4 (minor changes, but sufficent, to steal the Contract from FN), so The Jewish Iraqi ( which owns "Colt Firearm Ind.") could keep the Contract, under the New Designation. (needless to say: Lautenburg is Anti-Gun), Colt moved it's headquaters from Hartford to Springfield, Conn. as to evade paying the Retirement Contract (to the ex-employees of Colt) which was Part of the Original Agreement when Mr. Zulkor bought Colt.
An't America Wonderfull!
and you can bet, the 1911-A1 was replaced by the Beretta 9, for monetary gain of some Congress Person/Persons. It pays to Know & Antisipate your Governors and Government!
All will work well in "The New World Order" [}:)] you have their promise [xx(]
Ronnie G. Perkins0 -
ADDITION: (Opps I should have added), Browning - Winchester is now owned by Fabrique Nationale, (and I am damn glad of it). Olin Mathison bought Winchester in 1964, (it was down hill from there), The "Make Money Quick" boys would have contracted with Pakistan for an extra buck. Browing and Winchester became the same Company (yet divided, the Browning being the Higher Quality Line. When the "BOSS" first hit the scene, both Winchester and Browning had it. Eventually, It became a Browning exclusive.
To answer the other question: FN Browning will Bring a Premium over the Jap version, (even tho the jap version was rated higher in the Blue Book for some time).
Now! We can look forward to Winchester & Browning to get some of their "Old Glory" back. (and deservedly so), Fabrique Nationale has never compromised their Quality, (except when Adolf Hitler took over their Factories during WW2), If it says " Browning- Made in Belguim" you have a winner, Long live the Hi-Power, Auto-5, 1911 Army Combat Pistol, 1885 Highwall, BAR, Browning Water Cooled Machine Gun, and the Nearly 200, Individual Patents by "John Moses Browning".[:p]
Ronnie G. Perkins0 -
FN Browning still for Sale!
The Wlloon government of Belgium took over FN in 1997 from GIAT, the French arms conglomerate, Fn (or the Herstal group), like many of the GIAT factories, suffered from extensive financial difficulties.
The Belgian government intervened in order to save the company from possibly defaulting.
the take-over and financial restructuring that followed were successful and the company was placed back onto the auction block. More than 60 potential buyers presented themselves over the years.
The governmnet established a commission to evaluate each potential buyer. Most of the buyers were soon eliminated. The government was seeking to find a buyer who guaranteed the jobs at FN Herstal while demanding many conditions tied to the sale.
Three US companies/holdings remained from the initial 60 interested parties. These threee were asked to make their proposals by Mid-June. Only one proposal was submitted.
The offer was considered medocre and rejected. After investing almost $3 billion Belgian franks (more that $65 million), the government decided to keep the Herstal Group.
The Herstal Group now consists of :
1. FN Herstal, includes FN and Browning Europe
2. The munitions plant in Zutendall, Belgium
3. FN/Browning Viana-Portugal
4. Browning-Morgan Utah and manufacturing facilities in Salt Lake City
5. FN Manufacturing-Columbia, SC
6. Miroku in Japan
7. Winchester-Connecticut
8. The Munitions plant in Anagni, Italy
Belgium: A Tangled Mess:
One can only speculate why the US buyers decided not to go for the deal, the specific information has not been released but one can assume that the turn-off was not FN or the Herstal-Group.
Any U.S. businessman will find it incrdibly difficult to function or operate in the small country of Belgium. First there are the restrictions and conditions. It is understandable that a government would like to keep people employed but in this case this was condition of the sale. Employment figures should be mandated by the economic needs of a acompany and not by governmental contracts.
There are also the unions to deal with; unlike what we are used to in the U.S., the unions in Belgium are tied into the government(s). The unions have government affiliations and are a force to be reckoned with. Unlike what we know in the US, these are not easily held accountable and often paralyze the infrastructure of business. It is virtually impossible in Belgium to go through a month without some union paralyzing daily life. Strikes are common and occur often.
Source:
Browning Collectors Association Newsletter,
Belgian newspapers: La Meuse, Le Soir and The Economist magazine0 -
Delta514, I don't know where you got your "facts" about Colt, but they're mostly wrong.
"The 1911 Was originally a 38 Super"
The basic design was the Colt Model 1900, which evolved into the Model 1902, the Model 1903 and the Model 1905 Military. These were in caliber .38ACP....not .38 Super.
"John Browning worked with Springfield to make the First Prototype model of the 1911..."
No he didn't. Browning worked directly with Colt, and Colt developed the gun and made all of the prototypes. The only way that the Springfield Armory came into it was that the military acceptance trials were held there.
When the 1911 was adopted, the contract with the Government stipulated that Colt would produce the first 50,000, and after that the Springfield Armory could build 1 for every 2 that Colt made.
"...But Mr. Lautenberg of Connecticut, lobbied to have the Nomenclature changed...."
Senator Frank R. Lautenberg is a Democrat from New Jersey.
" Colt moved it's headquaters from Hartford to Springfield, Conn. as to evade paying the Retirement Contract......"
First, there is no such place as Springfield, Connecticut. There's a Springfield in Massachusetts, a Springfield, Illinois, and probably Springfields in lots of states....but there's no Springfield in Connecticut. Secondly, the original Colt factory on Huyshope Avenue in Hartford had originally been built in the 1860's and was no longer suitable for modern manufacturing. In 1994 Colt moved to a new facility in West Hartford, CT.
I doubt that moving 10 miles would void a retirement contract.0
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