Ball & Williams Carbine?
I have a Ball & Williams "carbine". I refer to it as a carbine because it is a light, relatively small rifle. It is a trigger guard lever, falling block action much like a 1885 Winchester. It has a 25" barrel, and a two piece stock (butt and forend). It is about a .40 cal. (I have not "slugged" the bore)and appears to take a center fire cartridge. The firing pin is about 1/2" long. The rear sight flips up (short range-long range)and looks very much like a Model 1866 Winchester SRC. with long range leaf that has a sighting hole in the middle and a notch at the top.
Comments Please.
More info:
The barrel has a two line stamp
Ball & Williams
Worchester, Mass.
Also, it is a single shot.
Thank you,
Taperloc
Still more info!
The barre[ is stamped on the right side: Ballard Pat. Nov. 5 and either 1861 or 1881, I can't quite make it out. I have ball gaged the bore and it's about .362. I will try to slug it to get a better #.
The firing pin in the hammer goes all the way through the hammer, that is, you can see the firing pin stud on the back side of the hammer. The serial # 59XX is stamped on the barrel next to the receiver, on the receiver top just behind the barrel, and on the inside of the forend. Hope this helps.
Thank you, Taperloc.
Comments Please.
More info:
The barrel has a two line stamp
Ball & Williams
Worchester, Mass.
Also, it is a single shot.
Thank you,
Taperloc
Still more info!
The barre[ is stamped on the right side: Ballard Pat. Nov. 5 and either 1861 or 1881, I can't quite make it out. I have ball gaged the bore and it's about .362. I will try to slug it to get a better #.
The firing pin in the hammer goes all the way through the hammer, that is, you can see the firing pin stud on the back side of the hammer. The serial # 59XX is stamped on the barrel next to the receiver, on the receiver top just behind the barrel, and on the inside of the forend. Hope this helps.
Thank you, Taperloc.
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Hello again,
The Ball repeating carbine was made by E.G. Lamson & Co. of Windsor Vermont. It is a 50 caliber 7 shot rimfire, lever action, repeating carbine. It has a two piece stock and the forend is 3/4 the length of the barrel and held by one barrel band. There were about 1,000 of them made under a government contract of 1864, but, the carbines were not delivered until May of 1865, to late to be used in the Civil War. Even though delivered to late for use in the war collectors still consider them to be Civil War carbines. Values run from $1500-$3500 depending on condition.
Scout0 -
Scout, think you're comparing apples and oranges this time, amigo. This rifle doesn't sound anything like the CW Ball carbine. could be the same party involved, of course; these people were making and breaking partnerships / companies all over the Northeast 1860 - 1900. If you ever come across any of the .50 Ball rimfire ammo, let me know!!!
taperloc, a picture might help the firearm gurus while a chamber cast would enable me to advise the cartridge it took.0 -
taperloc....the firm of Ball & Williams was the earliest manufacturer of the Ballard patent breechblock system. Most were made in 44 rimfire, but were also made in 38 long rimfire and 46 rimfire. They were made from about 1862 to 1865 and had contracts for use in the Civil War. Also for the state of Kentucky. If you look carefully, you may find Ballard's Patent 1861 marked. There is a lot of history available on these carbines.
After several unsuccessful other manufacturers, this Ballard patent rifle was produced by the J.M. Marlin Co. and they produced the finest single shot ever made, the Marlin-Ballard (no arguments here I'm sure).
J.M. Marlin Co. eventually became the Marlin Firearms Co. in 1881.
Bottom line, you have a nice one...treat it with care.
max
load the old ones with the old tools.....0 -
Hello John,
I have to admit that I didn't think of the Ballard rifle,but, Blackpowdermax is correct. Ball & Williams did make the Ballard rifle in Worchester Mass. A quick check would be the fact that the early Ballards' had a manually operated extractor and there is a knob on the bottom of the forestock. To extract the cartridge you lower the lever and pull the knob back toward you, pulling the cartridge out of the chamber. Only the Civil War Ballards' used this system.
I did run a quick patent check on Albert Ball and the only thing that came up was his 1864 patent for the repeating carbine. In the book "Our Rifles" by Charles W. Sawyer (1920) he makes the statement that Ball submitted a rifle for testing to the Rifle Board of 1872. I went to "The Breech Loader in the Service 1816-1917" by Claud E. Fuller (1965) and read through the 1872 boards' report to the Chief of Ordnance and the Ball is not one of the rifles listed. I also checked "Identifying Old U.S. Muskets, Rifles and Carbines" by Col. Arcadi Gluckman (1959) and also came up empty. In 1981 Charles Chapel reported a Ball carbine in .56-56 Spencer and also one in .44 rimfire but no other details.
Check your carbine to see if it is a Ballard and let us know. If it is you have found a very collectable peice.0 -
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your help on this I will examine the weapon closely and post my findings.
Thank you again, Taperloc.0 -
taperloc, from the additional information, I'm reasonably confident it was chambered for the .38 Ballard XL centerfire version, as the rimfire version wasn't out there very long, but certainly after 1861 and before 1881; which makes me also reasonably certain that your patent is the latter date. OAL of this round is roughly 2.12" with a .362" +/- bullet.
taperloc, listen to the man from KA; he *knows* the old rifles!! Given his input, I'd say a chamber cast is absolutely essential if you want to shoot this antique (actually it's a damn good idea in any case). There was also a .38 XL rimfire which is substantially longer than the standard .38 Long which was also used in a variety of rifles, including Ballards, so I would not categorically assert that it was one versus the other in the absence of the chamber measurements. The XL was the basis for the XL Ballard CF cartridge.
Well, again, the image (this one shows both sizes of the rimfire) seems to require a delay of some period of time before it appears.0 -
taperloc/ICONOCLAST.....teak....I have to disagree with you on the caliber and patent date. The patent date is the original patent date of Nov. 5, 1861. The only other patent date ever put on an Ballard rifle was Feb. 9, 1875 for a reversible firing pin so that you could shoot rimfire and centerfire in the same rifle. This was long after Ball & Williams were gone. All Ball & Williams carbines and rifles were strictly rimfire. taperloc has a 38 long rimfire and the spade shaped rimire firing pin on the front of the hammer has been removed and a centerfire pin added. It is possible that someone rechambered to 38 XL when they changed the firing pin. taperloc, you will have to measure chamber length to tell.
I have a Marlin-Ballard in 38L and use 38 Long Colt cases and a heeled bullet from a old mold to match the rimfire size. Can't find any 38L rimfire cartridges, so I shoot centerfire (probably why yours was converted). I load with black powder. You will have to be more cautious than I, because yours was not originally intended for centerfire. You don't want punctured primers and the resulting facial "hot flashes" that result.
teak....how's your stock of 44-75 Ballard Everlasting? Guess what I bought.
Hope this helps....
max
load the old ones with the old tools.....0
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