Colt 1911 Army - ser.# stamped on inside of slide
I have a "Model of 1911 U.S. Army" with the guns serial number stamped on the inside of the slide. The serial number is in the low 139xxx range (manufactured by Colt in 1917...lot of 13,786 units). The dealer from whom I purchased the gun was surprised to see this. It is a very nice piece. We discovered this upon disassembly for inspection. The dealer is huge and widely known. There was a knowledgeable collector present also...who was also puzzled to see this...he took a picture of it to research it, but I never heard anything from it. The stamping was obviously done by hand. Speculation was that the armorer didn't want the slide to become seperated from the lower for some reason. The dealer thought it was a special gun...perhaps belonging to someone with significant status, or that it was accurrized for match use. Is anyone familiar with this practice...why would someone go to the trouble?
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Is the gun, otherwise, in original military configuration?
That's a puzzler, but I'd suspect that the reason was probably pretty much as you stated.0 -
Early in WWII Colt stamped the serial # under the firing pin plate of the slide; I'm not aware of any M1911's with that. Usually serial #s are marked on other parts of US weapons when they fall into the hands of foreign military armorers, who seemed to care a lot more than USGI armorers about all parts of a gun staying together. This mutilation will always result in a lower value for the gun.
I don't want to offend you, but I inferred from your description that you paid a lot of money (> $1,000?) for a gun that you didn't know a lot about. I also don't know of any "huge" dealers who handle high-end USGI guns; you didn't buy this in Southern California, did you? I assume that this gun is supposedly original, not a rebuild; due to the large # of fakes & refinished guns on the market, you would be well advised to verify that you have the "real thing" while you are still in a good position to return it.
Do you have a digital camera? If not, you might want to borrow one & show pictures to the fellows on the M1911/M1911A1 forum at Culver Shooting Page (www.jouster.com).
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by Xracer
Is the gun, otherwise, in original military configuration?
That's a puzzler, but I'd suspect that the reason was probably pretty much as you stated.
It is "correct" (military configuration) as per my reference to the publication entitled: "Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols, Models of 1911 and 1911A1" by Charles W. Clawson (copyright 1998, Clawson Publications). I have disected it to individual parts and it matches the description as it would have left Colt Manufacturing (with a few exceptions, see below). This publication is replete with photos of the variants, and is a good/helpful reference in my opinion.
Although...upon completing the purchase, I noticed at home under further inspection that there were three incorrect parts. These were provided to me by the dealer as an option, or returning the gun (I chose to take the parts). The parts they exchanged for me were: 1.)recoil spring 2.) barrel 3.) magazine.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
Early in WWII Colt stamped the serial # under the firing pin plate of the slide; I'm not aware of any M1911's with that. Usually serial #s are marked on other parts of US weapons when they fall into the hands of foreign military armorers, who seemed to care a lot more than USGI armorers about all parts of a gun staying together. This mutilation will always result in a lower value for the gun.
I don't want to offend you, but I inferred from your description that you paid a lot of money (> $1,000?) for a gun that you didn't know a lot about. I also don't know of any "huge" dealers who handle high-end USGI guns; you didn't buy this in Southern California, did you? I assume that this gun is supposedly original, not a rebuild; due to the large # of fakes & refinished guns on the market, you would be well advised to verify that you have the "real thing" while you are still in a good position to return it.
Do you have a digital camera? If not, you might want to borrow one & show pictures to the fellows on the M1911/M1911A1 forum at Culver Shooting Page (www.jouster.com).
Neal
I have had the gun about five years...too late to return it. I am sure of it's correctness. It is not a rebuild. I appreciate the information you provided...no offense taken of course. I may submit the photo to the web-site you mentioned if I can find the time. I just joined the forum and thought I would try to solve this puzzle. I am happy with the gun and just trying to find-out more about it. The dealer is not who you mentioned, and I don't feel comfortable using their name w/o permission...especially since I don't have a beef with them. They are not the premiere Colt .45 Auto dealer in the country I am sure, but they had a nice inventory (They had a "Singer" manufactured piece that was a little rough, but interesting to see 1 of only 500 built!). Take care.0 -
quote:Originally posted by fort_knox
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
Early in WWII Colt stamped the serial # under the firing pin plate of the slide; I'm not aware of any M1911's with that. Usually serial #s are marked on other parts of US weapons when they fall into the hands of foreign military armorers, who seemed to care a lot more than USGI armorers about all parts of a gun staying together. This mutilation will always result in a lower value for the gun.
I don't want to offend you, but I inferred from your description that you paid a lot of money (> $1,000?) for a gun that you didn't know a lot about. I also don't know of any "huge" dealers who handle high-end USGI guns; you didn't buy this in Southern California, did you? I assume that this gun is supposedly original, not a rebuild; due to the large # of fakes & refinished guns on the market, you would be well advised to verify that you have the "real thing" while you are still in a good position to return it.
Do you have a digital camera? If not, you might want to borrow one & show pictures to the fellows on the M1911/M1911A1 forum at Culver Shooting Page (www.jouster.com).
Neal
I have had the gun about five years...too late to return it. I am sure of it's correctness. It is not a rebuild. I appreciate the information you provided...no offense taken of course. I may submit the photo to the web-site you may be thinking of mentioned if I can find the time. I just joined the forum and thought I would try to solve this puzzle. I am happy with the gun and just trying to find-out more about it. The dealer is not who you may be thinking of (this one is in Illinois). I don't feel comfortable using their name...especially since I don't have a beef with them. They are not the premiere Colt .45 Auto dealer in the country I am sure, but they had a nice inventory (They had a "Singer" manufactured piece that was a little rough, but interesting to see 1 of only 500 built!). Take care.0 -
Today, we are more "sophisticated" about marking our personal weapons! We can use an electric etching pencil and put our Social Security Number on the side, bottom, under the grips, any place at all! Ideally, we can "engrave" our Name, Rank, and Serial Number on the side which is the furthest away from us so we don't have to look at it but we know its there.
Any of this "DEFACES" the gun and removes it from its "Original" state and most, If NOT ALL, Collectors just walk away or offer a price equivalent to less than 50% of the Value of the Gun BD! Oh, "BD" means "BEFORE DEFACED!" It can never again be called "Original."
"Life is FRAGILE!" Handle With Care!0 -
quote:Originally posted by RancheroPaul
Today, we are more "sophisticated" about marking our personal weapons! We can use an electric etching pencil and put our Social Security Number on the side, bottom, under the grips, any place at all! Ideally, we can "engrave" our Name, Rank, and Serial Number on the side which is the furthest away from us so we don't have to look at it but we know its there.
Any of this "DEFACES" the gun and removes it from its "Original" state and most, If NOT ALL, Collectors just walk away or offer a price equivalent to less than 50% of the Value of the Gun BD! Oh, "BD" means "BEFORE DEFACED!" It can never again be called "Original."
"Life is FRAGILE!" Handle With Care!
I sense some hostility in your reply? I am curious why. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also, I'm not sure where you are coming from...especially in the first paragraph?
I did not use the word "original", nor did I say I was a "collector". I am not asking for or soliciting responses regarding the monetary value or colletivity/desireability of this weapon to collectors. Please re-read my question sir.
Regarding the "defacing" of a firearm...by your reasoning; if a Colt revolver were marked with "Wyatt Earps" name...and it could be verified that it was indeed his and marked by him or his gunsmith...it would be worthless? Or, say some "old west" outlaw was renown for putting "notches" in a certain place on his firearm when he killed an opponent...and the gun could be traced to this person...it would be worthless? Or General Pershing had his pistol in for inspection/repair and a nervous armorer made sure he marked the gun in some way as not to confuse it with another...it would be worthless?
Thank you for your advise. May I offer you some? Be careful making assumptions...it can spell; ass/u/me.
Take care and thanks for your input.0 -
Coming on board calling names won't get you anywhere! Let me explain my "hostility!" As a Collector of Colt guns, I have seen many great specimans that are "ruined" because of just the kind of far fetched bull sh** you're peddling with this gun! You want me to compare apples to oranges....which I won't do! But, I will explain something you obviously don't know a damned thing about.....that is provinence!
Bill Cody's gun would have been verified by more than one means....yes, possibly even his initials scratched into the gun or a like marking and it would "ADD" to the value......if provable! The Key to this Issue is "PROOF!" Let me ask you this. What can be proved by the serial number being hand stamped into the inside of the slide of a M 1911 Pistol? Not a Damned thing except someone had too much time on their hands and "DEFACED" the gun.
The story the Gun Store told you makes good sense.......after all, How the Hell else would they be able to get fair market value out of a Defaced gun? I suppose you would buy some beach front property just outside Ely, Nevada, because the real estate agent explained "It's just low tide." Give me a break.........and your little game of "assume" did rightly piss me off........so when you need Colt Information.....get it somewhere else....I don't have any further need to mess with a person lacking the capability to tell the difference between night and day! I've forgotten more about Colt Guns than you will ever learn.......!!!!
"If you don't want a STUPID answer, Don't Ask a STUPID Question!"0 -
quote:Originally posted by RancheroPaul
Coming on board calling names won't get you anywhere! Let me explain my "hostility!" As a Collector of Colt guns, I have seen many great specimans that are "ruined" because of just the kind of far fetched bull sh** you're peddling with this gun! You want me to compare apples to oranges....which I won't do! But, I will explain something you obviously don't know a damned thing about.....that is provinence!
Bill Cody's gun would have been verified by more than one means....yes, possibly even his initials scratched into the gun or a like marking and it would "ADD" to the value......if provable! The Key to this Issue is "PROOF!" Let me ask you this. What can be proved by the serial number being hand stamped into the inside of the slide of a M 1911 Pistol? Not a Damned thing except someone had too much time on their hands and "DEFACED" the gun.
The story the Gun Store told you makes good sense.......after all, How the Hell else would they be able to get fair market value out of a Defaced gun? I suppose you would buy some beach front property just outside Ely, Nevada, because the real estate agent explained "It's just low tide." Give me a break.........and your little game of "assume" did rightly piss me off........so when you need Colt Information.....get it somewhere else....I don't have any further need to mess with a person lacking the capability to tell the difference between night and day! I've forgotten more about Colt Guns than you will ever learn.......!!!!
"If you don't want a STUPID answer, Don't Ask a STUPID Question!"
The only "name calling" going on here sir, is by you. The ass/u/me illustration was meant to be contstructive...it was cited to our group by one of my instructors during my training...it holds water. Regarding the "coming on board"...it was you who was less than welcoming and encouraging in your initial response to me as a new member. As far as the rest of your most recent reply goes, you are still engaging in making statements and accusations incorrectly derived from my printed words, and definetly my intent.
I am sorry you feel the way you do. It is not my nature to alienate people, but it is also not my nature to ignore what someone has written if it appears incorrect and my actions may correct the "path" it appears a discussion is taking.
I didn't ask "YOU" anything. As you wish, if you do not want to respond to me anymore...that is fine. Perhaps that will work best.0 -
Easy there Paul. He's made no claims of any sort......he's just presented us with a little puzzle.
Ft. Knox: Replacement of the recoil spring and magazine shouldn't alter the value. These were usually replaced over the life of almost all military weapons. The same is also usually true of the barrel, although some collectors would insist on an original Colt M1911 barrel, most would settle on any original GI barrel of the correct era.
Personally, I don't consider this gun to be "defaced". This could have easily been done by a military armorer to a match gun or to the gun of a ranking officer who insisted that his "pet sidearm" be kept original.
"Is anyone familiar with this practice...why would someone go to the trouble?"
Yep.....once. I was stationed on a Fleet Tug in Newport, R.I. We had 9 or 10 M1911A1s on board that were issued to us when we made mail runs or stood quarterdeck watch....all except one. That was the "pet" Remington Rand of our ship's Gunner's Mate. He had "tuned" it and used it in military .45 shooting league matches in the area....at the Naval Base, over at NAS Quansett Point, and at the Davisville Ammo Depot. He had his intials engraved on the frame, slide, barrel, and bushing....and God help anybody who tried to touch his "baby"!
Anyway, you've presented us with an interesting question......I guess we'll never know the answer.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Xracer
Easy there Paul. He's made no claims of any sort......he's just presented us with a little puzzle.
Ft. Knox: Replacement of the recoil spring and magazine shouldn't alter the value. These were usually replaced over the life of almost all military weapons. The same is also usually true of the barrel, although some collectors would insist on an original Colt M1911 barrel, most would settle on any original GI barrel of the correct era.
Personally, I don't consider this gun to be "defaced". This could have easily been done by a military armorer to a match gun or to the gun of a ranking officer who insisted that his "pet sidearm" be kept original.
"Is anyone familiar with this practice...why would someone go to the trouble?"
Yep.....once. I was stationed on a Fleet Tug in Newport, R.I. We had 9 or 10 M1911A1s on board that were issued to us when we made mail runs or stood quarterdeck watch....all except one. That was the "pet" Remington Rand of our ship's Gunner's Mate. He had "tuned" it and used it in military .45 shooting league matches in the area....at the Naval Base, over at NAS Quansett Point, and at the Davisville Ammo Depot. He had his intials engraved on the frame, slide, barrel, and bushing....and God help anybody who tried to touch his "baby"!
Anyway, you've presented us with an interesting question......I guess we'll never know the answer.
Thanks for the information and your opinions regarding my posting. I can appreciate the perspective regarding the "pet sidearm", and enjoyed the story about the Gunner Mate's "baby". Have a good one.0 -
Gentlemen: The Bickering and Name Calling Ends Right Here and Now!I will Not tolerate the Members going Fist City on My FORUM...Theres obviously a Misunderstanding between Two Members....my suggestion is for Both of these Members to re-read the questions and Respond in an intelligent manner....Make peace...We have enough problems in the World without fighting amongst ourselves.........
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0
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