Which HK91 clone??
I wanted to know anyones opinion on which clone is the best for someone on a limited budget.I only have 800$ currently to spend. Are the new Century rifles any good? I saw one with an FMP receiver for 750, while the ones with USA receivers are 500$. I have never owned one of these guns, and would like to know the ins and outs of them. Any help would be appreciated.
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While the FMP receiver is made on HK equipment in Portgual, and generally viewed as the "next best" after HK, many of these were assembled by in basements by "wanna-be gunsmiths", with no idea what the proper barrel pin pressure is ... or even care as long as its tight, what the proper headspace is or how to measure it ... and some of the Centruy clones have me wondering if they know or how much they care ... but they have a loyal following and I won't begrudge anyone for that ... as far as I know none have blown up and hurt anyone ...
If it was me ... and this is just a personal opinion, I would look for a Special Weapons model SW3, or have Investment Grade Firearms or Arizona Responce Systems build one for me ... both IGF and ARS have good reputations, I've never heard of anyone having a problem with either of their builds; but it you do, you have someone to go back to that values their reputation.
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Chance favors the prepared mind
kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com0 -
Everyone has an opinion on this subject and it tends to rattle a lot of cages when anyone says something against one of these clones- be they HK or CETME's. I am going to try to avoid this mine field this time around and approch the subject from a different angle. For many years starting in the 1980's I was an authorized HK law enforcement dealer and I handled their full line of firearms, including NFA weapons. I'm going to cover a few points here, offer some advice, give my opinion and then you can reach your own conclusions.
Right now pre ban HK-91's are out of reach to most shooters. The clones which you see advertised are USA made recievers which were revrse engineered here in the USA with no factory assistance what so ever. No one from Oberndorf ever set foot inside the Century Arms facility and set up their production line or aided any of the sub contactors which Century uses. On the other hand there were two licensed manufacturers of HK receivers and rifles imported into the USA. By licensed I mean that HK technicians wet to these factories and set up the production lines and were constantly on hand to advise in technical matters.
The most widely known of the licensed HK rifles was Hellenic Arms of Greece and these were imported by Springfield Armory as the SAR-3 (pre ban) and SAR-8. Elleniki Biomichanica Oplon of Anjion (Hellenic Arms) produced over 200,000 G-3 rifles for use by greek armed forces and their parts are fully interchangable with the German made HK's. The rifle you are looking at was built on a receiver produced Fabrica Militar de Braco de Parts (refered to as either FMP or FBP) and is located near Lisbon, in Portugal. The Portugese adopted the G-3 as far back as the 1963 and are very experienced in the production of these rifles. All FMP parts are fully interchangable with HK parts. There were a handfull of complete FMP rifles imported in to the USA by Inter Ordnance and other firms, but these are not often encountered.
So what does all of this mean to you the shooter? You have a clear choice between a licensed copy of a rifle which was built on a receiver made in a factory set up by HK technicians (who no doubt enjoyed their visit to Portugal very much) with about 40 years of experience in making the G-3 rifle. OR you can choose a rifle built up on a receiver made by people who probably have never even been to Germany, much less received any technical help from HK. For a mere $250 difference in cost I'd go with the FMP made receiver ahead of the USA, but any Century product should be viewed with caution. Kimber, I see you made it onto the thread. I hope none of those CETME guys come over to the expert side, I don't think I can stand another round of "I love my clone no matter what its faults and I don't want to hear anything bad about it".
Mark T. Christian0 -
I would like a Special Weapons 91, but they are a little steep for me. The FMP receiver rifle I mentioned is being auctioned now on this site. It is a new Century rifle, with 6 20rd. magazines.There is also a G-3 clone made by JDL being auctioned. Has anyone tried one of those? 0 -
All very good advise.Keep it coming. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mark christian
Everyone has an opinion on this subject and it tends to rattle a lot of cages when anyone says something against one of these clones- be they HK or CETME's. I am going to try to avoid this mine field this time around and approch the subject from a different angle.
Mark, I think you like rattling cages!
I quit reccomending the Springfield licensed clones when they started using the aluminum receivers ... it sometimes gets confusing for a ... personal thing, I reccomended the Springfield to a friend and he got the aluminum version, had nothing but problems with FTF, FTE, accuracy ... you name it; after sending it back the 3rd time and Springfied couldn't fix it they told him they couldn't get parts and offered to make him a deal on a M1A ... they did finally make it right with the M1A, but it wasn't really what he wanted ...
I've seen a couple authentic FMP's LNIB, with factory box, paperwork ect. ... and at the time they cost as much as an original HK! Although there aren't any US made licensed clones, there are a few people that know their way around an HK and how to build one correctly ... and as Mark said, all are reverse engineered. Probably the formost authouity on HK's in the US is Murray Urbach of UPM Company ... he installed a custom barrel an FMP reciever for me, and I can reccomend him highly ... but he's not cheap! ... I have as more in my FMP clone as I do my HK SR9T ... but it will out shoot the original all day long ... and it is a clone; so their not all bad!
5 shot Group is at 100 yds, the red dot measurers 3/4" and was used for an aiming reference only ...
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Chance favors the prepared mind
kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com0 -
Hello Kimber, I'm not sure that you've posted a photo of your highly accurate "friend" before. I am curious as to who the manufacturer of your fluted barrel, is it Urbach himself or another brand? I have a SR-9TC and have been less than over whelmed by its accuracy. It absolutely will not deliver the group that you've shown. Instead of the PSG forearm you are using (those were available from Capital City a few years back) I am using the standard slim-line so that I could mount my heavy bipod as I prefer the balance point at the front of the magazine housing rather than nearer the muzzel. Which scope have you mounted? I continue to use my old Zeiss 1.5X6- which I know very well and trust from 25 years of use.
I honestly had not even given those later aluminum Springfield receivers a thought and I am glad that you pointed that out since kahlig would have just gone in on the assumption that they were "all good because Mark said so". I have one of these early Hellenic Arms guns from Springfield and I am very satisfied. The later aluminum receivers were trouble prone and should be avoided. I have not seen an original FMP rifle in quite a while, there were a lot of them sold out here in California because they were "ban beaters" for a while- along with the Springfield SAR-8's- those days are now long gone of course.
I actually HATE to rattle cages, but I also hate to listen to people with very little knowlege of something go on and on as though they are experts in that subject. One fellow on the CETME post came back and told me that I could not possibly know as much about these matters as I believe I do because the field of firearms is simply to broad. Thanks to you Kimber I just kept my cool and thought about the "blind monkeys". I have yet to read anything you've posted on HK's that was not correct and I've learned a thing or two myself while reading your posts- keep it up!
Mark T. Christian0 -
kahlig - I have no experience with the rifle you are about to purchase; however, it has been my experience with any firearm I have ever purchased is you get what you pay for. Sad to say it appears that the HK rifle you want just cost a little more money if you want to play. BTW, I would listen to Mark and Kimber about these rifles, they know these guns.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member0
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