Old Ammo Question
I was wondering why some calibers on older cartridge guns are numbered such as 38-40 25-20 0r 45-70 etc.... I know the first number is the caliber of the bullet but what is the second number for?
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I was given an old, has a 1904 stamp on it, unopened box of ammunition. The box is labeled 20 Caliber .30 Ball Cartridges for U.S. Magazine Rifle Model 1898 and manufactured at the Frankford Arsenal. It is printed black on white. Would this be for military use and I was just wondering what the Model 1898 Magazine Rifle might be. There are instructions printed on it to de-cap the cartridge afer firing and throw them into the water. Is this necessary for reloading purposes or? Obviously, I don't want to open it. Any help in identifying this will be appreciated. 0 -
grain weight of black powber 0 -
So am I to understand that a 38 spec. or 38 S&W would fit into a 38-40 chamber and work?
Not that I would do this, just asking........
It has no bearing on the case size?0 -
madmarcO, You run a great risk of damaging a gun or injuring yourself when you fire any cartridge in a firearm that it is not specifically chambered for. gunut 1 is correct in so far as his answer goes. The practice in the US in the early days of cartridge manufacture was to use the second number to designate the amount of black poweder that was loaded in the cartridge. The European method of naming the cartridge was for the first number to designate the bore diameter and the second number to designate the case length. e.g., 7X57 means a 7mm bore diameter with a case 57mm long. The English also had their own way of desicribing cartridges. As you can see, this is a
complicated subject with few simple and short answers. For safety's sake, never fire any any cartridge in a firearm that is not marked specifically for that cartridge. Some substitutions are safe, such as firing a .38 Spec cartridge in a .357 Magnum but don't try any substituion without getting expert advice that it is safe. Advice from the clerk in a discount store ammo department does not usually qualify as expert advice.0 -
It has a bearing on case size, via internal volume. IE: 47-70, 45-90, 45-110. You can't get 90gr of ctg. BP into a case designed for a lightly compressed 70gr load.
BTW. The second half of 30-30 and 30-40 designate the amount of the (than) new smokless powder.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
Thanks, Just to note, I would NEVER load any old cartridge into one of my old guns, I know what could happen.
But I see so many reference to these numbers that mean different things like 30-06 and 45-70 which are 2 total different meanings as to the numbers used to designate them.
Thanks for the imput.0 -
If you arn't already confused, try this one: .45-90-550 2.4" Sharps Straight. This one is .45 caliber with 90 grains of FFG black powder under a 550 grain lead bullet all in a straight cartridge case 2.4 inches in length as loaded by the Sharps Rifle Co. Welcome to the wonderful world of black powder cartridges! 0 -
38 Special, 38 S&W, and 38-40 are three entirely different cartridges.
Generally speaking, the first number is the caliber and the second is the number of grains of blackpowder....BUT...
While 44-40 is 44 caliber with 40 grains of blackpowder....38-40 is 40 caliber with 38 grains of blackpowder.
And.....
30-06 is 30 caliber adopted by the U.S. Army in 1906
25-06 is a 30-06 necked down to 25 caliber
250-3000 is 25 caliber with 3,000 fps muzzle velocity
...and if you're not confused, you just don't understand the situation! [:D]0 -
38 Special, 38 S&W, and 38-40 are three entirely different cartridges.
Generally speaking, the first number is the caliber and the second is the number of grains of blackpowder....BUT...
While 44-40 is 44 caliber with 40 grains of blackpowder....38-40 is 40 caliber with 38 grains of blackpowder.
And.....
30-06 is 30 caliber adopted by the U.S. Army in 1906
25-06 is a 30-06 necked down to 25 caliber
250-3000 is 25 caliber with 3,000 fps muzzle velocity
...and if you're not confused, you just don't understand the situation! [:D]0 -
Get hold of "CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD" it's the best book on the subject. Amazon sell's the latest edition for app. $25. You can get earlier editions on www.bookfinder.com for much less money. Barnes and his successors, go into great detail regarding 19th & 20th century ammuniton. Trust me, it will answer almost all your questions. 0 -
There is no hard and fast rule.
To give several examples:
The ".38-40" should be some sort of .380" diameter bullet, right? No, it's .401"
Well, then, of course the .38 Special will be. No .358" - as does the .357 Magnum / Maximum
while the .35 Winchester also uses a .358" bullet
How about the .38 S&W? No again, .360" (In fact, the earliest version was known briefly as the '.36/38')
The .303 British is .311" while the .303 Savage is .308"
The .221 Fireball, .222 Remington and .225 Winchester all use a .224" bullet . . .
but the .22 Savage uses one of .228" while the .22 Hornet uses one of .223"
On and on . . . . .
The number after the dash *theoretically* is the number of grains of BP used in the earlier cartridges . . . usually.
Leaving aside that the .40-60 Marlin and .40-65 Winchester are the same cartridge.
Or that the .250-3000 is actually a .257" bullet in a cartridge claimed to push it to 3,000 fps.
Or that the .22-250 is the above cartridge necked down to take a .224 bullet and not backed by 250 grains of BP!
Or that the .30-03 is a .308" bullet in the 1903 version of the Springfield cartridge, not three grains of BP.
Or that the .30-30 was never loaded with black powder.
Or that the .50-2.5 Sharps means a .50 caliber bullet in a 2.500" case.
Or that the .45-2.00" Sharps was their name for the .45-70 as they loaded it.
On and on . . . .
They have the same problem in other countries . . .
Lots of 8mm rounds out there . . . often in two flavors - .318" (R) or .323" (S) . . . .
And 7mm also, when it isn't called a 7.1x or 7.2, all with the same diameter bullet . . . did someone brag about German precision?
Then you have the Brits taking a perfectly good round - the 7x57 with a .284" bullet - and calling it the .275 Rigby . . . .
On and on . . . .
Would a rose by any other name smell so sweet? [:D]
Apologies to prior posters who listed many of these examples; I wanted to write a comprehensive reply I could save to boilerplate this question the next time it surfaces (no offense, marco . . . it's a very legitimate inquiry and can be very confusing even to those with years of exposure to the shooting sports).0
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