Shooting damascus barrel shotguns
Anyone here have any experience with re-proofing or shooting damascus barrels w/smokeless powder (light loads)? Lots of conflicting statements out there. Pro & con for shooting these guns. Thanks, GS
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It's always been my understanding that it is a bad idea to shoot a firearm with damascus barrels with current cartridges/shotshells. Metal being too old and weak for smokeless shooting and in a lot of cases too weak even for blackpowder. 
So, who's your favorite big screen cowboy?0 -
The Brit's proof and shoot these guns all the time... That's there and this is here.
These are usually quite old pieces that don't have much of a pedigree here in the US. The proof process is something that isn't especially good for a gun in that it exposes the tubes to excess pressure on purpose. You can do the same thing, but why chance the destruction of a beautiful old gun?
Better to buy a new Ruger for everyday affairs and keep the old smoker stuffed with black powder.
Nord0 -
In the name of safety, would you really want to try?
Measure twice, cut once.
Empty the clip!0 -
Hello "brayhaven"[:)]
The answer to that question is absolutely NO!! Now....let me explain
why! The early black powder shells (all gauges) had a maximum chamber
pressure of 7000/8000 psi. Yes, I know some of the 12 ga. 1 oz. listed
in the present loading manuals list loads in that pressure range. The
problem is where in the barrel that pressure occurs! With black powder
the peak pressure occurs within the first 6 inches, whereas with
smokeless powder it occurs about where your hand is on the forearm.
Careful examination of blackpowder shotguns (unlike smokeless guns) show that the barrels taper very quickly ahead of the chamber and are very thin in the forearm area. This is where the peak pressure of smokeless occurs. Therefore....I advise that only blackpowder be used in these guns.
It takes a great deal of experience to even determine whether a set of
Damascus barrels are still safe even with black powder.
My gunsmith has the fiberoptic equipment that allows us to check the inside of the barrels at right angles to the bore in addition to other nondestructive tests that are performed on my Damascus barreled "Ladies" on an annual basis. If ANY evidence of delamination is found in one of them, it will immediately become a wall-hanger.
If you are still going to use a Damascus barreled shotgun, first you are going to have to find a gunsmith EXPERIENCED in DAMASCUS barreled shotguns, not just shotguns. Secondly you are going to have to be prepared and get the necessary equipment to load black powder shotshells. If you decide to do this then my recommendation is Swiss as first choice for black powder, and second is Elephant -- FG granulation in both cases.
Just in case you are wondering, yes, I still have all of my fingers on my left hand, BUT they are not in the original condition. Experience sometime comes at a high cost.
Best Regards[:)]0 -
OUTSTANDING POST, AdamsQuailHunter! [^] 0 -
It seems to me a few years ago Briley was making barrel inserts to bring old Damascus guns back to life. It would be something subgage
such as a 20 inside a 12. It still had to be a good quality arm and you REALLY had to want to shoot it, as it could get quite expensive.
They were hand fitted, sometimes by Briley himself.
Others have said it well. Get a Ruger or even a Stevens/Savage Fox
if you want the side by side experience or how about one of the Russian Baikals?0 -
AdamsQuailHunter;
I'd appreciate you emailing me the name and phone number of your gunsmith. I have a early L.C. Smith I might be interested in having checked out. I've been shooting it on occasion with BP shells. Bores are mirror, no pits, none. Still I may have it checked out if his rates are reasonable.
Woods0 -
The problem with damascus barrels is the fact that they were used with BP and the way they were made. Strips of low grade steel(That's another thing about them. The steel is not very strong to start with.) were heated red hot and hammered together. Also, BP has salts in it that get into the micro-pores of a barrel and cause rust to start. The laminations, bad term but it works, create larger places for the salts to get into. You have no idea how any 100 year old shotgun was cared for. Hence it ain't safe to shoot a damascus barreled shotgun. Period. And the BP made now isn't the same as BP made 100+ years ago. Under no circumstances are Dmascus barrels safe to shoot with ANY modern shotgun ammunition. It's not, is it going to blow? It's when is it going to blow? Find an honoured place for it and hang it up there. 0 -
Good Show All...Good Show.....! You've made the Captain Proud of You. .....Best....
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
Originally posted by AdamsQuailHunter
Hello "brayhaven"[:)]
The answer to that question is absolutely NO!! Now....
Thanks for all the replies to this query. As to those who say to just get a ruger(savage etc) they just aren't the same.:o). Quality, feel etc. I appreciate the info here by Adamsquailhunter which has been for the most part, the conventional wisdom re: damascus bbls. I was more wondering if there was a re-proofing service. I read another account on damascus that was quite interesting which opined they were much stronger than moderm barrels and destruction tests required 40-50K psi to burst them (in good condition). I'm curious AQH, why you recommend Swiss & then Elephant. I've found Swiss to produce much higher pressures than any of the other BP's. I like it and use it almost exclusively though. BTW, I'm a gunsmith and have been for many years. Just have very little experience with damascus barrels but have a chance to buy a very nice damascus gun that I'd like to shoot. I'd kind of like to keep all my digits though. I've become rather "attached" to them.).
Greg Sefton0 -
Of all these replies only Sunray addresses the real issue. The welding of metal strips, wire or whatever damascus barrels were made from (and they were made from various forms of strip, wire,etc) the welding was done by the time honored heat and beat method. Done perfectly it was the then-best method of joining iron to iron. Unfortunately not all of them received perfect welds. Even though they passed proof tests and served faithfully for decades, the imperfect welds could deteriorate over time. Old iron and steel can be porous which can allow the void in the welds to oxidize (rust) over time. Visual inspection can detect only that which reaches the surface. Only sophisticated methods such as X-ray can detect interior flaws. Proof testing of these old barrels only means that it survived firing of that charge at that time. Next time?? Something like proof testing a light bulb. Barrels made by the blacksmith method (heat and beat) using small pieces of iron were successful in our early day Kentucky rifles. In my restoration work over 40 years I have done machining on the barrels and frequently found poor welds as described above. Damascus barrels have to remain an unknown quantity even after proof testing and visual examination. Take it from someone who has been there and done that.
Having said all that, as a kid in the 1930S I fired my grandfather's badly worn damascus barrel shotgun (new in 1886) hundreds of times with whatever fodder was available but never with black powder. Lucky? Maybe. Comments, etc. welcome to rhmc24@swbell.net0 -
quote:Originally posted by rhmc24
Damascus barrels have to remain an unknown quantity even after proof testing and visual examination. Take it from someone who has been there and done that.
Having said all that, as a kid in the 1930S I fired my grandfather's badly worn damascus barrel shotgun (new in 1886) hundreds of times with whatever fodder was available but never with black powder. Lucky? Maybe. Comments, etc. welcome to rhmc24@swbell.net
We all did these things as a kid. Wonder we survived. Well it sounds like we have some good advice here. I think I may still buy the gun & sleeve it for modern ammo. Maybe make it as 28 ga.
BTW, here's that interesting quote on the damascus failure test I read:
"""FYI, there are firms in England that are presently making nitro proofed damascus barrel guns again(bring lots of money). Also, there was a test report in Double Gun Journal a few years ago wherein an old and very rusted/pitted damascus Parker 12ga was loaded to failure while wired for pressure. Failure occured in one barrel above 40 kpsi, the other as pressures approached 50 kpsi. Doesn't sound weak to me...
If you got one(lucky dog!) check it out; if it passes muster use it! Black powder or with research, nitro for black substitutes. Steel does not get weak just because it's old.....""
Thanks for the input folks. A great resource here!
Greg Sefton0 -
This is off subject. I see you are having problems with the quotes icon thingy. To use the quotes icon correctly you first need to click on it, this will produce the quotes command string, then copy and paste the text between the back to back brackets. e.g. - ]paste text here[ Do not type your response within the brackets as it will become part of the quote as it did above.
Boomer, the helpful
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."NRA Life Member0
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