British Brown Bess original ?
I have an original Brown Bess musket. Every thing about the musket seems original except the barrel. it is only about 27" long. Does anyone know if there was ever a Brown Bess made in this barrel length? What is something like this worth. There is no unusual wear, rust, or damage. Just the normal stock ding and stuff, but no cracks or broken parts. All lettering is clear and it hasen't been "messed" with.
Taperloc
Taperloc
0
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taperloc,
The answer is no. Shoot me a picture and I will try and determine
which configuration you may have. Go through my profile. Perhaps IS
will come along. Answer is still no if in original configuration. 1010 -
There were some models made for "Sea Service" that were shorter,Flaydermans book would give you more info, 0 -
Hello Taperloc,
First, the bad news, your musket has already been "messed" with. There were no "Brown Bess" muskets originally issued with barrels shorter then 40 inches.
To start at the beginning of a very complicated subject, there are three models of the Brown Bess. The first model which is considered a true Brown Bess is described in British regulations in 1722. This musket had a 46 inch barrel pinned to the stock, iron funiture, a lock with a strong curve to it's underside and a wooden ramrod with a brass tip. The lock, stock, and barrel will carry proof marks and the lock will also carry the name of the maker and the date. By 1750 the iron rammer had replaced the wooden one and brass funiture had replaced the iron. The first ram rod pipe becomes flared and outside bridles are added to the locks. The bottom of the lock plate is becomeing straighter and now barrels are 42 to 44 inchs long. In 1764 the names of the contractors names and the date of manufacturewere orderd dropped from the lockplates and only the word "TOWER" was allowed to be stamped on the tail of the lock plate.
The second model Brown Bess was officially adopted in 1768 and incorporated all of the above changes. The 42 inch barrel became standard. Other changes involved the side plate, butt plate tang, the second rammer pipe becomeing flared and changes to the lock. This is the musket used in the American Revolution.
The third and last model of the Brown Bess was adopted about 1790, with a straight line to the bottom of the lock plate and the 40 inch barrel became standard. There other cosmetic changes, such as dropping all of the stock mouldings, changes to the butt plate tang and the trigger guard finals, dropping the silver thumb peice behind the barrel tang and in general simplifying the musket.
The Brown Bess officially went out of service in 1830, but was found to be still in use for another 50 years in some parts of the world.
As to carbines: There were four types of carbines in the British service. Before 1756 these were cut down Brown Bess muskets. Usual barrel lengths were 27 to 28 inches. All of these were of musket caliber which was .75 caliber. Other then barrel length, these carbines conform to the first model Brown Bess. After 1756 carbine caliber was reduced to .65 caliber to match the new Light Infantry Fuzee.
Militia and Marine (Naval) muskets were made and issued from about 1756 to about 1775. They are usually considered as second grade weapons and contain many obsolete parts from as far back as the time of Queen Ann. They are of .75 caliber with 42 inch barrels and no sling swivels.
From the above Iam sure that you can see the need to provide a lot more information on your musket then you already have, before anyone can give you definite answer to your question. Your musket should be covered with proof and inspectors markes and you need to post them all. Photos of the butt plate, lock plate, side plate and trigger guard would be very helpful.
Best of luck, Scout0 -
This is a 3rd model Brown Bess (Napolianic war era), they are asking $2950. Hope this helps.
NRA ENdowment, CRPA Life, NRA ILA EVC, Past President NRA Members Council
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem. Semper Fidelis0 -
I have a second model reproduction bess and what others have told you are correct. I have had chances to buy originals but have no use for a wall hanger. The reason I have a repro. is to use in reenactments. There are cases of brown besses being cut down by traders that traded them to the Native Americans. The one that you have got was probably cut down to be used as a canoe gun. As stated since it has a different barrel it has been "messed with" already. Are you sure that the lock and rest of the furniture is origalial? If the barrel is 27" then the stock has been cut as well. What caliber is it? It should be .75 cal. 0 -
Iq Scout gives a very good summation of the Brown Bess. I would add that I have owned two 1730s dated first models and handled maybe a dozen more - all had brass furniture. One dated 1728 also had brass. Never saw one with iron furniture. If taperlocs BB is an actual original in which the only mod is having been shortened it would be well worth having the barrel and wood restored -to make a piece worth some very serious money. My last BB dated 1732 went for $5k to a dealer who moved it out for much more. --- In the interest of more info. 0 -
Dear Friends,
Thank you all for your responses. This BB belongs to my sister-in-law, (my wife's sister). My brother-in-law died last Aug.and the gun belonged to him. I am not very knowledgable of these types of firearms and I truly appreciate your in puts. I will try to get a picture posted this weekend with additional info. I know that will help. The gun will be going to auction May 30th.
Thank you all very much. This has to be the best, most interesting web site going.
Taperloc0 -
Taperloc,
Good to hear from you. Iam looking forward to seeing the pictures. As I said before, it would help to have pictures of the lock, side plate, butt plate so that we can see the top tang of the plate and the trigger guard. It would also help if you would post all the proof marks and inspectors marks that you can find. Hopefully, from these marks we will be able to tell if the musket was made in London, Birmingham or Dublin.
Rhmc24
Yes, you are right, even some of the earliest Brown Bess muskets are found with all brass furniture, but the regulations of 1722 call for iron furniture and I have had the opportunity to examine several in the same time frame as your 1728 example that were all iron. As an advanced collector, Iam sure, that you realize that I kept my answer as short as possible. Indeed, I could have written another 500 pages on this topic and probably not have covered it all. For example, I didn't even get into how the stock evolved over the 108 years that the musket was in British service.
One point on which I disagree with you, is the suggestion that the barrel and stock be restored to original length in order to increase the musket's value. This would just be throwing money away as such drastic restoration would actually lower whatever value is left in the musket.
Wishing you both all the best, Scout0 -
I have done some investigating and thinking about this piece, as follows:
From some of my reference material. One is a booklet "Red Coat and Brown Bess" by Anthony D. Darling dated 1970, published by the Museum Restoration Service, Ottawa, Canada. This publication has numerous pictures of the long land pattern (first model), short land pattern (second model) and the third model or India pattern. From it a few observations come to mind. It looks like the McCoy rather than a repro. The lock picture is very good and appears to be a standard Tower lock of the late 1700s, early 1800s. Opposite the lock, the side plate seems to be rounded and minus a 'tail'. A piece of this period could have either a rounded or flat side plate, with or without the tail. The hole in the trigger guard is where the lower sling swivel was. A lot more close up pictures as good as your lock picture would help a lot. If it was shortened it looks like it was done by and for some military purpose such as to make it into a carbine. The sight/bayo lug is proper on the top of the barrel. Most anyone could shorten the barrel but who, other than some military unit, would want to fix a bayonet? With the barrel shortened that much a standard bayonet would not fit due to the larger diameter of the tapered barrel. Maybe the barrel diameter has been reduced ??? If there is no indication of the barrel being reduced in diameter for a bayonet and the barrel has a smooth taper its full length down to bayo diameter, one could think the gun was made as-is in the first place. Who would use a carbine with a bayonet?? Maybe as a ships small arm?? Maybe a dragoon weapon (dragoons were mounted infantry, riding horses but fighting dismounted). There were other non-military users. Some that come to mind are ships small arms, arms for exploratory expeditions, etc.
Having said all that, I find in a booklet dated 1963, "The Military Arms of Canada" by the Upper Canada Historical Arms Society, pictures showing two very similar guns which they label as carbines, one with 26" and the other with 28" barrel, apparently originally made that way. Altho labeled under the pictures I did not find them discussed in the text. Both booklets are very well done, on very good quality paper with good pictures and have about 50 pages.
Based on the little I have found out, I'm inclined to believe it is one of those originally made or possibly converted to a carbine. As such I would not consider lengthening it until a lot more is learned about it. There were so many types and variations in guns of the period that I doubt a positive ident can be made. One 'expert' might decide it being an original carbine and another might disagree, in which case you are back to square one. If I had that piece and could satisfy myself that it was originally made as it is today, I would have a rare gun. Supply and demand being what it is, it still probably would not command a great price because the altho the supply is very few, there has to be a belief that it is genuine to create enough demand to bring the price up. I would cherish it for what I believed it to be, or dispose of it I got a big enough offer. If it real and original my guestimate of value starts at around $2k depending on condition. Hope this helps. Robert
PS Pictures were forwarded by Iq Scout.0
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