CAPT. KIRK: HISTORY LESSON???ANYONE HAVE INFO???
i am trying to settle a dispute sparked by the latest issue of HANDGUNNER magazine. they have a feature article focusing on the SMITH&WESSON MODEL 1. they actualy test fire one for the story!!! in the article they state that the MODEL 1 is the first S&W, and the first ever production model revolver to utilize self contained mettalic cartridges and to posses a front-to-back bored through revolving cylinder.
my father owns a ROLLIN WHITE production S&W ("MADE FOR SMITH AND WESSON") revolver. it utilizes self contained mettalic cartridges, and features a front-to-back bored through revolving cylinder.
i understood that the ROLLIN WHITE was the first production pistol marked SMITH AND WESSON. both patents date from 1858. this particuler example is one of the first 4,000 made. from the serial number, and other proprietary markings i believe it is a very early piece.
i believe that these guns were made because S&W manufacturing could not fill there contracts in time, and had not converted there production facilities to produce revolvers of this type. i thought they contracted ROLLIN WHITE (the original inventor and patent holder fore the bored through cylinder) to fufill there contracts until such time as they could produce the items in house/themselves.
i have found conflicting data in my referance material. the opinion is split about 50/50 in which holds the "1ST" title.
please let me in on any opinions.
please let me know what your research indicates.
please (anyone) throw some knowledge around.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
my father owns a ROLLIN WHITE production S&W ("MADE FOR SMITH AND WESSON") revolver. it utilizes self contained mettalic cartridges, and features a front-to-back bored through revolving cylinder.
i understood that the ROLLIN WHITE was the first production pistol marked SMITH AND WESSON. both patents date from 1858. this particuler example is one of the first 4,000 made. from the serial number, and other proprietary markings i believe it is a very early piece.
i believe that these guns were made because S&W manufacturing could not fill there contracts in time, and had not converted there production facilities to produce revolvers of this type. i thought they contracted ROLLIN WHITE (the original inventor and patent holder fore the bored through cylinder) to fufill there contracts until such time as they could produce the items in house/themselves.
i have found conflicting data in my referance material. the opinion is split about 50/50 in which holds the "1ST" title.
please let me in on any opinions.
please let me know what your research indicates.
please (anyone) throw some knowledge around.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
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I'll pull up my database tomorrow Mike...Have a House full of Company tonight.....Best......
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
Good old Horace and Daniel (Smith and Wesson, respectively) first joined hands around 1852 with the idea of making a lever-action pistol. This evolved into the Volcanic guns, and our fearless duo sold their shares to the Volcanic Repeating Arms Company in 1855. The Volcanic company later turned into Winchester, as a sidenote.
Meanwhile, Horace and Daniel dreamed up another deal involving a self-contained metallic cartridge, which they patented in 1854 and which eventually evolved into the .22 rimfire cartridge we know today. Unfortunately for our entrepreneurs, Colt held the patent on the mechanically-rotating cylinder so Smith & Wesson could not produce a revolver until that patent expired in 1857. Instead of sitting on their thumbs, in the meanwhile they procured Rollin White's patent on the bored-through cylinder design. When Colt's patent expired, S&W promptly patented the breech-loading cartridge firing revolver in what was one of the best manufacturing coups in firearms history.
So, there is S&W happily making as many revolvers as they possibly can until around 1861 when the War of Northern Aggression proved too much for their factory to handle. Our old buddy Rollin White formed the Rollin White Arms Co in 1861 to produce revolvers under his old patent for Smith & Wesson. All of the production was marketed by Smith & Wesson through their dealer network. In 1864, Rollin White was hosed and the name was changed to the Lowell Arms Company which kept up production for another year or so.
Our indication is that although Rollin White undoubtedly made at least a few patent models, Smith & Wesson had bought the rights to the patent and the first true production guns were Smith & Wesson products. There is evidence to support that S&W were producing the revolvers prior to 1861 when the Rollin White company was formed.0 -
Flayderman doesn't agree with your argument! He states that S& W started manufacturing their first revolver in 1857.
The Rollin White revolver your Dad owns dates no earlier then 1861, when it was made under contract for S & W. This was done to meet the demand that S & W couldn't satisfy, during the early years of the Civil War.
The S & W Model 1 had been in production for 4 years at this time.
I believe your confusing the patient rights that S & W bought from Rollin White in the 1850's with the revolvers he produced under subcontract for them in the 1860's.0 -
My library is sadly lacking in this particular area. Guns of the Old West, Charles Edward Chapel (1961, Coward McCann) recounts this story on pages 96 through 97 in chapter 5. Although Chappel backs up everything which CountryGunsmith and RufeSnow said in their posts (save CountryGunsmith's calling the Civil War the Northern War of Agression) I found our GB friends writings far easier to read.
Mark T. Christian0 -
Now Mark, don't go slammin' Chapel, he is one of my favorites. Actually, I find him to be one of the more readable shooting authors.
redcedars0 -
It was my understanding that S&W made the first self-contained cartridge revolver using Rollin White's patent. I would not be surprised if guns were later made by White or under his name but I think S%W was first.
&0 -
VERY interesting and informative answers, gentlemen! Thank you. 0 -
Country Gunsmith---I see that we have someone that labled the Yankee Agression for what it was and is to this day. Thank you for your truly accurate accounting of this revolver and the Yankee Agression. We may have lost the war but we are free to carry our weapons, to own our weapons, to honor our ladies, and to MIND OUR MANNERS[:D] 0 -
Afternoon Mike: First off I want You to understand that I'm not gonna get caught up in the Frey!...I have my Ideas and then there are those that have opposing thought on the Subject of Smith and Wesson et al..!
The only thing I'm saying is that what You read here is strickley from my database:
You already know what S&W did before starting a Company of thier own pre 1856...So lets
breeze by the 1856 and the development of the metallic Cartridges and up to the Civil War and some of the problems Smith & Wesson had with Patent Infringments...and some of the Separate companies that made Revolvers for Smith & Wesson...
The Stamping; Made for Smith & Wesson is occasionally encountered, and is most notably found on Guns made by MOORE, BACON or POND- Made for Smith & Wesson was applied by those manufacturers after having lost a Patent Infringment law Suit to Smith and Wesson in 1862.
The Marking 'Made for Smith & Wesson' is also encountered on Small 22 Caliber Revolvers by Rollin White Arms Company and Lowell Arms Company...The WHITE Arms Company of Lowell, Mass. or Lowell Arms Company Was formed by Rollin White in 1861 to manufacture Revolvers to meet the demand which Smith & Wesson could not fill during the Civil War. They were marketed by S&W...The Firm changed its name to Lowell Arms in 1864 and Rollin White's association was terminated....These guns were actually made under Contract to Smith & Wesson and are Not considered Infringments...there were 4,300 Rollin White Revolvers Made and bear the Smith & Wesson Markings...and there were 7,500 of the Lowell Arms Company made...and all for Smith and Wesson.
MOORE'S Patent Firearms Company made the S.A Belt revolver Stamped Made for Smith & Wesson..and 2,000 were made.
For referance...see Roy Jinks...The Guns of Smith and Wesson 1857 to 1945...Fladerman's is also another Good referance source...There's to many variances for me to want to get caught up in...and Not being able to actually See First hand what it is that we're talking about...I don't feel I have anything further to add......
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
alright, i surrender!!! i have found referance to ROLLIN WHITE making guns of this type before 1860, but it seems that none ever got much past the 100 piece production range. its obvious that he was producing arms, and doing design work before 1861, but i can find little or no information about this period. i agree that the S&W model 1 came first.
how many pieces need to be made to be considered a "production" item??? the first year of S&W MODEL 1 saw less then 350 pieces made. the second year is less then 3000. is there a standard method to define a "production" item??? i am not trying to split hairs, i am curious about how the term is defined.
is there any information about what WHITE did after his dealings with COLT, but before his dealings with S&W??? i have seen some odd tecnical design schematics/patent blueprints from him during that mystery period, but can only find referance to two guns produced post 1860.
its nice to see such a vociferous and well researched response on what is a rather obscure topic.
has anyone else noticed that many referance books contradict each other??? i have found many works to be factualy at odds with one another. thanx for the spirited debate. best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0
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