ICONCLAST>.70-150 WCF HISTORY/LOAD DATA/INFO???
we have a customer at the shop who collects winchester leveraction rifles. if it says "winchester" and is a leveraction rifle he owns it. he wants to own one lever gun in each cartridge ever offered/chambered by winchester at the factory.
he is having a custom model 87 built by a noted winchester gunsmith chambered in .70-150 WCF. it will have a 30" tapered octagon BBL, custom tang sights, grade II wood, schnabel forend and pistol grip cap in burled walnut, charcoal case hardened reciever, shutzen style crescent buttplate, 2/3 length tube mag., etc...
he wants us to produce the cases, procure the projectiles, run off some handloads for him. we have special ordered the dies (don`t ask, the cost was shocking), we have the basic brass, and even found a scource for the bullets and 2 molds (600 gr round nose lead, 700 gr round nose/flat point lead).
do you have any idea??? does anybody???
what would be a good "starting" or "light" load???
does this info exist anywere???
we intend to make up a run for cartridge collectors, what do you think is a fair market price per loaded example???
we charge $64.00 for the .700 NITRO EXPRESS, but i am not sure what to put on the .70-150 WCF.
can anyone provide any history/info/data/stories/reference/etc...???
best regards, mike.
the case will hold a little over 150 grs of powder!!!
i have checked all my referance materials, and cannot find load data. cartridges of the world was helpful in some regard, and 4 books contained similar information, but i have not been able to obtain any load data.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
he is having a custom model 87 built by a noted winchester gunsmith chambered in .70-150 WCF. it will have a 30" tapered octagon BBL, custom tang sights, grade II wood, schnabel forend and pistol grip cap in burled walnut, charcoal case hardened reciever, shutzen style crescent buttplate, 2/3 length tube mag., etc...
he wants us to produce the cases, procure the projectiles, run off some handloads for him. we have special ordered the dies (don`t ask, the cost was shocking), we have the basic brass, and even found a scource for the bullets and 2 molds (600 gr round nose lead, 700 gr round nose/flat point lead).
do you have any idea??? does anybody???
what would be a good "starting" or "light" load???
does this info exist anywere???
we intend to make up a run for cartridge collectors, what do you think is a fair market price per loaded example???
we charge $64.00 for the .700 NITRO EXPRESS, but i am not sure what to put on the .70-150 WCF.
can anyone provide any history/info/data/stories/reference/etc...???
best regards, mike.
the case will hold a little over 150 grs of powder!!!
i have checked all my referance materials, and cannot find load data. cartridges of the world was helpful in some regard, and 4 books contained similar information, but i have not been able to obtain any load data.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
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Mike, the .70-150 was *never* loaded, nor were any firearms ever made in this caliber. The only original examples are a few cartridge board dummies - something like Detroit's "concept" cars. The original dummies sell on the order of $500 - $1000. I've seen a few repros sell for $30 - $70 each. You probably could sell enough to make some additional profits on your investment in tools. Basically, as you undboubtedly know, it was a 12ga brass shotgun shell necked to .70 caliber. Load data, if it ever existed, would be based on BP. My only advice is to be very cautious! And to investigate if you can obtain some technical expertise from SAAMI, the ammo companies or ballistics engineers. Good luck. 0 -
ICONCLAST, the CODY MUSEUM, and CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD, both indicate that WINCHESTER made one gun in .70-150 WCF based on the model 87 action. CODY was nice enough to provide me with load data for the research fee of $65.00. they also indicate the the gun was never produced for commercial sale, and they believe only the one was made. they do not know what happened to it, if it survived, or were it is today. they state that the load was a engineering/gunsmith best guess, and cannot find information indicating that any loaded rounds were manufactured. they stated that dummies were produced for cartidge boards, and dealer/ salesman samples.
the load is for a 900 grain .705 diameter lead flat point bullet. the load is simaler to the data provided in the HANDLOADERS MANUAL OF CARTIDGE CONVERSION. this comes to me third hand from the customer. if anyone is interested i will post more info when it becomes available, and when the dies come in and we attempt to make up and load the cartridges. best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
our CUSTOMER, led by referance in CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD, has purchased the GUN DIGEST, 1952, SIXTH EDITION. apparently writer PAUL FOSTER mentions on page 173 the model 87 chambered for .70-150 WCF. we are waiting for it to be delivered.
does anybody have that particular edition of GUN DIGEST??? can they confirm the mention of the .70-150 WCF??? please let us know. best regards, mike.
(just curious, would anybody get in line to fire this gun???)
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
Mike;
As memory servers, the .70-150 wcf is/was a black powder
cartridge. As such it is like many others of this type, 45-70
-405 gov. 50-110-505 sharps, etc. Again as memory severs, It is
.70 cal., 150 grains black powder and a 600 grain lead bullet.
Even by modern standards this is a pretty hefty powder charge.
Recoil will be substantial, therefore the rifle will need to be heavily fortified in critical areas to withstand the beating. I would suggest starting at 90 grians of powder and work up gradually watching very carefully for the first sign of excess pressure. Since this, as far as I know, is a cartridge that never made it to production, Be very, very careful working up the loads. It might be worth testing in a pressure barrel to get a handle in how this beast is likely to behave in the rifle. You will also get accurate pressure
levels this way. Good luck.0 -
Mike, I was not aware of the single alleged example of the '87; one learns something new every day - thanks. Nor had I ever noticed the load data for the round in the conversions book, but there it is, with a smokeless powder suggestion, no less. Rather doubt the author ever expected someone to actually make up rounds and stuff them with 95 grains of IMR!! I think I'll pass on the opportunity to shoot it . . . once one passes 40, collar bones take a while to knit. [:D] 0 -
ICONCLAST, PYTHON,
thanks for responding. 30 days ago i would have not had any of this information, of thought that it was relavent. our CUSTOMER is an older retired gent, who has money to spend, time to spend, and is a widower. he has the will and means to contribute towards research on the subject. he is a rather private individual, often handing you slips of paper with notes on them instead of speaking.
i will try to keep all informed on the production, and ask permission to post pics of the gun when its finished. thank you all!!! best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
Just a thought, but how about data for the old 12 Gauge double rifles used in Africa and India. Ross Seyfried might be helpful. Also, the book Shooting The British Double Rifle has a chapter on Paradox guns and lists some loads for the 12 gauge. Good Luck. 0 -
the dies arrived today!!!!
it took 16 weeks for RCBS to produce the 3 die set and get them shipped to us. the base is the same one they use for brass 12 gauge shells. the dies are enormous!!! we are still waiting for the brass to arrive, and it will bear the "70-150WCF WALTS" correct headstamp. we will be putting the surplus cartridges on GB for auction at $79.95. i will report on our progress in ammo production, and on the field test when the gun is test fired. best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
What about the Info I sent You by Snail Mail..?......If Memory serves I sent you a Photostated Copy of this caliber from a Gun Book I have here in the clutter somewhere...These are made or were or could be made from Brass 12 Gauge Shot Shells...?...Just Curious....Old Age and Old Timers Desease....
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
CAPT., yes the information was helpful!!! we copied it and added it to the research file we are compiling. you were correct in stating that the cases can be produced from 12 gauge all brass basic stock using the custom RCBS 3 die set. we are going to do a dry / practice run with some 12 gauge brass in the shop. the customer would only accept correctly headstamped cases, and that takes more time to aquire from my secret scource. the curator/researcher at CODY told our customer that WINCHESTER used the same process and then die stamped the bases to .70-150 WCF.
we are going to err on the side of caution and load the first 10 cases with a reduced 75% powder charge just to be safe. we are not worried about damaging the gun, but there is some concern for the health of the test subject/shooter. thank you for all the assistance, if i can return the favor do not hesitate to ask. best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
Thanks Mike...was just courious.....Best.......
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0
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