Richards 12 ga. double, hammers
Seeking info on a RICHARDS 12 gauge double barrel shotgun, serial Number 75025. This has exposed hammers and "Laminated Steel" 30 inch barrels in Fair to Good condition. In addition, the number 555 has been stamped on gun in two places, 1) underside of left hand barrel and 2) underside of frame left side of trigger guard. Is it imported? American made? How old?, Use black powder only? Possible value? or any other info you know of or can think of would be appreciated.
NorthForkRancher
NorthForkRancher
0
-
Are there any markings, proofs etc. on the "WATERTABLE" ( the flat projection on the front of the receiver of a side-by-side gun, perpendicular to the standing breech ) of your shotgun? 0 -
Good Afternoon Art; My Data Base shows two Richards as Arms Arms Makers...One in the 1745 thru 1810 period and can't be yours. and then W.Richards in Belguim at the Turn of the Last Century...late 1880's to Early 1900's...These guns were mostly Copies of the Westly Richards Company of London, England but not near the Quality of the English Made Guns....These Belguim Made 'knockdowns' were sold in the Americas and elsewhere thru hardware Stores and Mail Order Houses during this Period and well into the 1900's...They came with Steel Barrels and Hammers and in Various Guages and also Hammerless Guns as well...They also came with Damascus Barrels and Hammer and Hammerless Models....In Excellent Condition are only Worth $225.00 to $250.00 as a Good Mantle Piece...I suggest that if you have a Steel Barrel Model in Decent Shape...Have a Good Gunsmith check it Over to see if its sound enought to shoot Low Base Loads....If it has Damascus Barrels...Just hang it on the Wall or Mantle and Leave it in retirement...Its just to Dangerous to want to shoot it......Best...
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
Thanks much CaptKirk, good advice I know-- and rufe-snow, here are some markings my nephew gave me over the phone tonight-3/12/03-- (I will actually see the gun tomorrow). He said there is a mark of "two crossed hammers" and a "14" stamped on each barrel end at the breech. Also, he said the word "choke" is on each barrel. Then he said there is a diamond with the letters "12C" inside it. The mark "A4P" is on the underside of rib/groove between the barrels. Further--he said there is a "12" and an Oval shaped design. Then he said there were other marks he couldn't make out so I'm going to meet him at his work tomorrow with a magnifying glass and see for myself.
Got any clues so far???????? I'll check here again in the morning if you or anyone else has any more tips of things to look for.
Art--NorthForkRancher
NorthForkRancher
'We Don't Rent Pigs'0 -
All these appear to be Belgian?
"Also, he said the word "choke" is on each barrel. Then he said there is a diamond with the letters "12C" inside it. Further--he said there is a "12" and an Oval shaped design"
My book lists this as being from Tula though? Really Weird!
"He said there is a mark of "two crossed hammers"0 -
to rufe-snow--yup, that's what he said----I'll be back tomorrow with more--thanks for taking this much interest
NorthForkRancher
'We Don't Rent Pigs'0 -
First of all rufe--what is tula?
I got to look at the gun today and will try to describe in more detail here now--
12 ga double, 30 inch damascus bbls, 2 exposed hammers,2 triggers, words "Laminated Steel" on barrel rib. Checkered pistol grip stock and forearm. Name "RICHARDS" on each side of receiver plus some fancy scroll work on the receiver along with what looks like maybe a bird and some marsh grass. Large "555" on bottom of receiver.
With the gun apart and looking down from the top of the receiver to the watertable is the number 75025 and two crosses that appear to be either crossed swords, spears, hammers or axes--something on that order. Next--looking at the bottom of the barrels where they meet the watertable/receiver: On the left barrel going from breech end forward is the number "14", then one of those cross symbols again, then a mark that looks like half a diamond ( > ) with some small dots/marks inside the fold. Next the word "choke" and still moving down the left barrel is the large letter "H", next "choke R", next a large "555" in a vertical column rather than in a horizontal row, next is the number 75025. That completes the marks on left barrel. On the bottom between the barrels is "A4P" (that is A four P)and a circle with "12" inside the circle. Now to the underside of the RIGHT BARREL: Again moving from breech end forward "14", then one of those cross symbols, then a large "555", then "H", then "choke R" with a number "2" under it and lastly the letter "R". Hope that helps.
NorthForkRancher
'We Don't Rent Pigs'0 -
The "TULA" I spoke of yesterday is a Russian arms factory. Prior to 1917 they used "Crossed Hammers" as a proof mark.
The marks you posted about today are definitely not Belgian.
They appear to be late 19th Century proof marks from the Birmingham Proof House in England. The problem is that they don't agree with the data given in my book!
OK let me give them to you starting from the breech.
1), "14" Muzzle diameter of a choke bored shotgun.
2), "Crossed Scepters" with "V", Proof Mark of Biringham used prior to 1904
3), "CHOKE" self explanatory
4), Letter "H" Unknown?
5), "CHOKE R" Either Rework or Rifled?
The above is the best I can do. As I said previously the markings don't conform to the information that is given in my references. For all I know they might be spurious?0 -
I'm pretty sure you have a Belguim made piece..The Belguim Firm of
Henrion, Dassy & Heuschen of Liege, Belguim used a Logo of Crossed Battle Axes...And There were many Belguim Gunmakers that used IN HOUSE Proofs on the Guns they made, and were never intended for export.I could go into a lengthy discussion about the Different In House Proof's used...but not Knowing just what it is you have in Front of you leaves me with a Void....Most of Europe used Crossed Swords or Axes or Spears or Arrows and other Crossed impliments of War at one time or another in Proofing Arms...To actually be sure...its going to require a Hands On Look at this Gun...Or at the Very Least a set of Rubbings...Almost, Maybe, Kinda and I Think, just won't cut it..!An actual, Precise, Discription of all the Marks, Numbers and Letters are what its going to take to ascertain the Parentage of this gun.......Best....
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
Capt. Kirk and rufe-snow
I'm extremely pleased with what you dug up and am sure my nephew will be as well. He was extremely happy with it as a conversation piece before this and, now, conversations will only be enhanced with the information you've both provided. Fun stuff.
Thanks a million!!
NorthForkRancher
'We Don't Rent Pigs'0 -
I've watched this thread with a great deal of interest for some time now and feel it's about time for a comment...
First, I would have said a Belgian gun. The "Choke" imprint would be a primary factor in leading me to that conclusion. But then there was all the rest that didn't agree...
If Belgian, then there would be "ELG" proofs stamped somewhere. The Belgian guns invariably were also stamped "Fine Twist", "London Fine Twist", or something along that order. "Laminated Steel" isn't a term I associate with Belgian knockoff's... Too plain sounding I guess.
Now the kicker... There are Birmingham guns stamped with W.Richards made in the correct pre 1900 time period. They were trade pieces and I haven't as clue as to the actual manufacturer. Quality is somewhat better than the Belgian guns, but nowhere near a fine British piece.
Value will remain on the order of Belgian guns. I hope some of your mystery has now been removed.
Nord0 -
ELG was the final Belguim Proof Mark...The problem is...was this gun a War Trophy..and never got that final Mark?.....and also, I've seen guns with Inhouse Proofs that were never delivered to the Government Proof House for Testing and Final Proofing...hence...The reason for the request for explicit discription and Rubbings......
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
11 comments