need info on these 2 bullets

calcnerd

February 17, 2003 12:30

i was going through a bunch of my very old ammo from my grandfather, and ran across these two bullets. i have no idea what they go to. here are the pics:

this one has absolutely no markings on it, and there is no primer either.


this one is a tracer of some kind. on the bottom, it has the letters as such - the . is the primer:

F
8 . A
04

EDIT-> i see the spaces didn't come in right...the letters form a circle around the primer

here's the pic:


thx in advance for your help

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  kingjoey

  February 17, 2003 12:39

  Hopefully Iconoclast finds this one, he's big on ammo. What do the bullets mike at? The top one looks like an old 32 short round of some sort, but without a reference size, who knows?

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  Ronald J. Snow

  February 17, 2003 12:52

  Bottom one, centerfire, looks like a 30-40 Krag round. What material is the bullet itself made of? From the photo it looks like a blank cartridge but it is hard to tell.

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  Iroquois Scout

  February 17, 2003 14:13

  The top cartridge looks like one of the early,copper cased,inside primed (see the crimp above the rim),center fire cartridges. The bottom cartridge is most definitely a .30-40 Krag blank with a paper bullet made by Frankfort Arsenal in August of 1904. But,Iconoclast will know for sure.

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  kingjoey

  February 17, 2003 14:21

  Looking again, I'd say the top is probably a 41 Rimfire like they used in that old Remington repeating pistol. Is that a dime shown for reference?

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  calcnerd

  February 17, 2003 14:55

  that's a quarter that i used for reference. the material of the second one appears to be plastic. i know that its a tracer of some kind b/c i had 2. i took one apart and lit the powder inside. it was a bright yellow flare.
  
  i do see a crimp on the first one above the rim.

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  Iroquois Scout

  February 17, 2003 15:14

  The only problem that I see is that in 1904 they didn't have either plastic or tracers. Could it have been reloaded? But, it sure looks like a Model 1896 blank.

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  kingjoey

  February 17, 2003 15:18

  50 cal remington perhaps?

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  vewoods

  February 17, 2003 18:37

  The short stubby round in the first pic has to be a 41 rim fire, they were made basically for the side break 41 rim fire derringers in the late 1800's. Nice to see some of the older stuff. Thanks.

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  calcnerd

  February 17, 2003 19:02

  iroquois, it doesnt appear to be a reload, but i could be wrong. from the one i took apart, there was NO gunpowder. just yellowish powder that was flare like when ignited. the numbers don't mean anything to anyone? thanks for all the help so far!

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  Tailgunner1954

  February 18, 2003 01:58

  F(rankfort) A(rsonal) 8 (august) (19)04
  That's just a guess, could be that 8 is a series or batch number
  

  ---

  Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.

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  Iroquois Scout

  February 18, 2003 02:52

  I think that Kingjoey has the top one identified, I too think that it is a .50 Remington for the Navy pistol. Since you found powder in the hollow bullet of the rifle cartridge and none in the case it is almost certainly a blank cartridge where the powder has gotten packed into the bullet and over time has gotten lodged there. These blanks don't have much powder in them to begin with. Hope that Iconoclast sees this topic as he will know one way or the other.

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  Iconoclast

  February 18, 2003 04:06

  calcnerd (glad someone does well with that math!) -
  
  The top is a .50 Remington ARMY (differentiated from the Navy by the slight bottle neck) loaded by FA (Frankford Arsenal). The indents are typical of the Benet priming system, which is a centerfire, inside primed, design; the indents hold the anvil elements in place against the inside of the head. To the best of my knowledge, none of the .50 revolver loads (Army or Navy) have headstamps, although they are not uncommon in .45-70. Benet system was used extensively in the 1870s as we made the transition from RF rounds to the CF design we know today. This was not the only such transitional CF primer system used, but it proved to be the most reliable and is by far the most common type seen. It was used in at least six calibers. Below is a better image of this round.
  
  The second round is exactly as ID'd by Tailgunner, Scout, et. al. - a .30 US blank in a case mfg by FA 8-04; it may well be an arsenal reload - most blanks were fabricated from fired cases or cases rejected for normal use as substandard. The 'bullet' is paper heavily impregnated with wax - this type of blank was the standard for the .30 US and was used in the .30-03 and .30-06 until the introduction of the M1909 blank (without the 'bullet') which was standard for the '06 until manufacture of that round for military use ceased.
  
  

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