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Curio and Relic License

ericthered
I have had a problem recently with a buyer who wanted me to avoid the usual FFL to FFL shipping for a pistol. I sold a Walher P38 byf 44 and the buyer insisted that I ship directly to him on the wieght of a Curio license. I spent quite some time in contact with ups and usps, atf and gunbroker, and no one supported the idea of shipping this pistol to him this way.
The buyer bailed out and would no longer communicate with me or even pay for my auction fees, and would not provide internet links to make his case. I have since had several emails from other curio license holders who insist that this 9mm auto can be mailed to a curio license holder, but still no internet links to prove the case. Where do I get accurate information on this . The atf will not answer emails on this question and until this event, I have never even heard of a curio and relic license.
Thanks
Eric

thats'me
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Comments

12 comments

Date Votes
  • ericthered
    What are the requirements for a curio and relic licence other than filling out the application and sending in the fee. I had my regular FFL license back in the early 80's but let it expire. I know when I applied for that their was a list of requirements. Is it similar for the curio and relic license? Also, can I download a copy of the app. or do I have to have the ATF send it to me?


    Thanks,
    Frank
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  • mark christian
    I am sorry to tell you this Eric, but you lost a sale and made an enemy. There is an entire list of Curio and Relic firearms (thousands) which can be shipped to holders of a Curio and Relics License which is issued by the BATF. What you want is ATF Publication 5300.11, the Firearms Curio and Relics List. This publication outlines everything you'd need to know about this including a list of the C&R firearms, a definition of Curio and Relics, record keeping, rules and regulations, out of state acquisition- EVERYTHING is in this little book. I suggest you request a copy from the BATF and ask for an application for a license for yourself as it is very useful. I have a regualr dealers FFL but I keep and C&R license as well.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • nmyers
    OK, a little tough love here. Based on your lack of knowledge of firearms transfers, not to mention your never having heard of a C&R license, I suggest that you completely avoid buying/selling firearms with anyone other than your local dealer. The law is too complex, and the penalties for violations too severe, for you to take a chance on making a mistake.

    The folks at Gunbroker have a lot of helpful information on buying/selling guns through their auctions. In addition, BATF publishes books (also available on their website) that explain the law; these include Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P 5300.4) and Firearms Curios or Relics List (ATF P 5300.11).

    The regulations concerning C&R's are found in several places in both publications cited above. The most straight forward section is in 5300.4, page 140, section G1:
    "Is there a specific license which permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce?
    Yes. The person may obtain a collector's license; however, this license applies only to transactions in curio and relic firearms."

    Could you have shipped the gun directly to the buyer? I can't say; the Gun Control Act of 1968 requires the seller to comply with state & local law, and, without knowing where the buyer lives, I have no way of knowing if he is eligible to receive the gun directly. (This is discussed in State Laws and Published Ordinances-Firearms ATF P 5300.5).

    You should also be aware that "FFL to FFL" is not a regulation; a nonlicensee may ship a gun to a person eligible to receive one under most conditions. You also should know that handguns can only be sent by non-dealers by common carrier, and may not be mailed.

    I cannot fault your buyer for pulling out of the transaction; your lack of knowledge must have been frustrating for him.

    Neal
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  • crisisbill
    Follow this link for all the information you need to know about what is a C&R, and what you can buy with it.
    In short if it's 50 years old or older it's a C&R item, that's the 1st rule, then you also have the list compiled by ATF.
    Be advised the fact that it is not on the ATF list does NOT mean it is not a C&R item. The 1st thing to consider is the 50 year rule.
    Then the Museum list, then the ATF list.

    http://www.goldenloki.com/misc/crffl.htm

    You did the right thing in the long run, if a transaction does not feel good to you always use caution.... But if you have intentions of selling firearms to people other than your friends or family, KNOW THE LAW.

    If you do a search on Gunbroker for P-38 you will see that some are listed as C&R guns and some are not.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=7471363
    If you Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail<P>coyotehunter@hvc.rr.com<P><br>

    Guns don't have fingerprints; they have signatures that can be changed in a moment.
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  • competentone
    Hey Mark and Neal,

    Take it easy on Eric! Looking at his auctions, I'd guess he's not an FFL; it looks like he is just a person selling some of his personal firearms on GunBroker.

    I think Eric did the right thing. Infact, I'm considering selling a handgun which is C&R qualified, but I will only be willing to ship to an FFL--I don't know how to verify a C&R license online, as I can a FFL. I figure any serious C&R license holder will know FFL's and will have a reasonably priced source to do the transfer.
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  • crisisbill
    Competentone,
    There is no need check on a C&R all you need is the inked signed copy for your records, the fact that C&R's can't be checked is not an accident, it was set up that way by the ATF for the privacy of the collectors. Years ago we were able to check C&R's but collectors addressed the security concerns with ATF and they removed the look-up option.

    If you Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail<P>coyotehunter@hvc.rr.com<P><br>

    Guns don't have fingerprints; they have signatures that can be changed in a moment.
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  • competentone
    quote:Originally posted by crisisbill
    Competentone,
    There is no need check on a C&R all you need is the inked signed copy for your records


    If the C&R license copy "looks" like the standard FFL copy, it would be extremely easy to make a forgery--I just don't need the hassle of learning I've shipped "illegally"--even if I did so "in good faith."
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  • ericthered
    I appreciate the feedback.
    To mark christian: If all it takes to make an enemy of someone is to insist on proof of the legality of an action, then he really has a maturity problem. Gunbroker is not made for only those who are intimately acqainted with the specifics of all gun laws. I have made several sales, all very straightforward and successful. I think if I were in this mans shoes, I would realize it is MY job of produce the evidence. The fact that he would produce no proof beyond his own word, is just not enough to risk fed gov problems.
    I am inclined to agree that the FFL is the safest way to go. I think that with all the information that demands the need for an FFL, that the C@R license holder take the responsibility to show it is legal to ship to. Being a gun owner who only has a couple to sell, it is kind of ridiculous to expect me to know all the nuances of such ambiguous and complicated laws. I spent just tonight, an hour or so trying to figure out the ATF regulations. What a mess. It is good to have this forum to ask these questions.
    Should this pistol be sold to a c&r holder, by what means can it be shipped. ups demands overnight shipping, and requires it be picked up at an FFL gunshop. USPS doesn't want much to do with any pistol.
    And these people do not seem to know anything about C&R licenses. I have had to cultivate a relationship with my local post office to ship just a rifle without a bunch of crap.

    Thanks for any suggestions
    Eric

    thats'me
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  • HAIRY
    Competentone: As a C&R FFL holder and as a buyer of C&R weapons, I must confess your attitude is unique to say the least. Please put into your auction description in BOLD LETTERS that despite the fact the C&R holder may legally receive the gun, you insist they pay an additional FFL to FFL fee because you don't want to follow the BATF regulations.

    At least that way, I, and other C&R FFL holders, won't bother with your auctions. Thank you.

    It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
    Resident Pyrrhonist
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  • mark christian
    Eric, if the gentleman "bailed out and would NO LONGER COMMUNICATE with me or even pay for my auction fees", I would not count on that fellow being among my list of friends. That is of course only my opinion and others may have different standards. I also said that I was sorry to tell you about your problem...next time I'll just give it to you straight.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • competentone
    quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
    you insist they pay an additional FFL to FFL fee because you don't want to follow the BATF regulations.


    Hairy,

    Being a private individual, selling a firearm only occassionaly and not wanting to ship directly to a C&R licensee, is not "not following BATF regulations." BATF regulations tell me what I can or cannot do to avoid prison and/or fines, if I want to take my own "extra precautions" that's my option (and if you don't want to follow "my requirements," that's fine too).

    And don't worry, if I do sell a C&R firearm, I will state my policy in my auction; you can then decide on your maximum bid price with the additional transfer fees in mind, if you wish to bid.

    When I sell a firearm it is not a "money-making venture"--I'm lucky if I break even. If I have to consult an attorney after shipping to someone I thought was an FFL who turns out not to be one, I can't treat that attorney expense as a "business expense" as someone selling guns as a business can do.

    As I see it my "attitude" is not "unique" on this issue; it's just a reasonable precaution for our (sometimes ridiculous) times.
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  • posh
    I'd just like to point out to anyone interested, that things being equal, a C&R eligible gun is worth more than a similar gun that is not C&R eligible. The Southern Ohio Guns flier lists C&R eligible Polish TT33s for $50 to $60 more than the same gun that is not C&R eligible.
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