ICONCLAST: odd ammo identity & questions
i purchased a 5 gallon pail of mixed ammo from a customer who is retiring to florida. he would not accept more then $20.00, stating it was all old, dirty, and mixed up. i paid his fee, of course. there were some nice finds: 37 rds .32 win. special(REM-UMC), about 40 paper shotshells(mixed), 49 rds .45 long colt, 9 rds .351 win. self loader, 3 .43 mauser (dominion) empty cases, 1 very(sp?) pistol illuminating round(paper), 1 rd .45-75 (wra), about 50 empty .32 long colt cases(rem), etc...
there are a few i cannot positivley ID.
1. 5 rds of .38 S&W lead semi-wadcutters(very little projectile protruding from the case) with copper colored cases.
2. 19 rds .30-06 RA 17 dummies(the 6 crimp body style)
3. 27 rds FA 38 (i think that they are .45 auto rim blanks, they taper at the top, and have that telltale red paper circle insert inset in the case mouth)
4. 4 rds FA 1 04 rifle rds(they are not .30-06, they have a rim) with rounded FMJ silver colored bullets.
5. 1 rd .30-06 FA TEST with no date.
any insite on the id, history, purpose and value of these rds???
one more question. are the .32-20 WCF and the .32 WCF the same round??? if not, do they interchange??? would a .32-30 wcf high velocity always be marked .32-20 WCF-HV??? can you tell if a .32-20 is an high velocity rd. just by examining it???(there were about 100 mixed rounds and cases in the pail. i have a .32-20 revolver, but it is not safe to use the HV rds in it.)best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
there are a few i cannot positivley ID.
1. 5 rds of .38 S&W lead semi-wadcutters(very little projectile protruding from the case) with copper colored cases.
2. 19 rds .30-06 RA 17 dummies(the 6 crimp body style)
3. 27 rds FA 38 (i think that they are .45 auto rim blanks, they taper at the top, and have that telltale red paper circle insert inset in the case mouth)
4. 4 rds FA 1 04 rifle rds(they are not .30-06, they have a rim) with rounded FMJ silver colored bullets.
5. 1 rd .30-06 FA TEST with no date.
any insite on the id, history, purpose and value of these rds???
one more question. are the .32-20 WCF and the .32 WCF the same round??? if not, do they interchange??? would a .32-30 wcf high velocity always be marked .32-20 WCF-HV??? can you tell if a .32-20 is an high velocity rd. just by examining it???(there were about 100 mixed rounds and cases in the pail. i have a .32-20 revolver, but it is not safe to use the HV rds in it.)best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
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Hey, Mike, I'm gonna have to charge you something for all this consulting! " any insite on the id, history, purpose and value of these rds??? " [;)]
(0) The Very pistol flare, depending on condition and loading, will sell quickly at the $5 - $10 range. H/s vary by era, but most commonly from WW1. Obviously used for signaling - by both ground and naval units.
(1) No clue unless they are faded dummies. None of my references list any copper-cased or copper-washed case loadings in the .38 S&W. Could be "reloading bench specialties." Send me a pic & dimensions.
(2) Are the indents in the body of the case or at the neck? Former are dummies - worth $1 - $5 each depending on condition (F to mint). Latter would be guard loads, $2 - $5 depending. Dummies used for training - firearms familiarization, guard loads were reduced power level to reduce the danger zone. These were also loaded for use in Federal prisons for the same reason - to reduce the chance of collateral damage.
(3) M1 .45 Revolver blanks. *HOWEVER* if the case mouth is approximately .375" ID, you owe me one for my work as this is an unusual variation (the normal design in that year would be a .312" ID) which I don't have in my collection.
(4) Send me pix and dimensions. The .30-03 has the same head design as the '06, so I don't get the 'rim' . . . sounds as though these might be .30-01 or .30 Blake. All three were transitional rounds between the Krag and the '06. The '03 was the only one officially adopted and there were many commercial weapons so chambered as well - most notably the M1895 Winchester - with commercial ammo loaded well into the 1930s. Value will vary greatly depending on exactly what you have. I might want to charge one round on this, as well [:D]
(5) Nice round, scarce early proof loading. There are dozens of variations on this loading which use the same headstamp over a period of a good 25 years. The bullet style, primer finish, case staining or plating, etc. would nelp a lot in ID exactly what you have there. I.e., would need pix and dimensions.
(6) .32-20 and .32 W.C.F. are the same round (other examples: .30-30 / .30 WCF, 38-40 / .38 WCF, .44-40 / .44 WCF). To the best of my limited knowledge, the HV rounds were so marked in the headstamp. These were just marketed for a short time - probably only until someone in Winchester's legal department heard about it. I've shot all manner of older .32 WCF in my S&W with no problem and I know my handloads are a heck of a lot hotter than the factory stuff. But for sure I would not myself use any of the "HV" shells in anything except a M1892 or other 'modern' rifle.0 -
I would like to jump in here for just a second to make a comment on question no.4. I think that what Mike has is the standard .30-40 Krag made by Frankfort Arsenal in January of 1904 rather then one of the rarer experimental cartridges. The Krag rifle was in production until at lest 1903 as I have a Model 1899 carbine with that stock date. Also, many state militia units were armed with the Krag and the Model 1899 Remington-Lee up to the U.S. entry into WWI, a few even after. The government provided cartridges for these weapons as long as they were in service.
Another thing that I noticed in reading through the post is the fact that this seems to be very old ammo and I wonder if it would be worthwhile to reload or even fire any of this ammo. The Dominon cartridges would have been loaded sometime in the last 30 years so were loaded with non-corrosive primers, but, I wonder about most of the rest of it. Anyway, just a thought.0 -
Scout, I didn't even consider the Krag angle as for some reason I had Springfield-on-the-brain-itis. I'm sure you are correct. Thanks!
Mike, arsenals, especially FA, continued to load Krag ammo until well after WW1 and in 1904 it was still being used by many units.0 -
thanx for the time and help, everyone!!!
ICONCLAST, drop me a line and i will send you some extras for your collection, examination, and opinion. best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
I would be interested in purchasing those empty .32 Long Colt cases.
The headstamp should read 32 LC, 32 LONG COLT, 32 LC or 32 LCF.
Send me an email if you're interested in selling.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44!"0 -
32/20 HV ammo was made for shooting in the rifle only, I think I remember seeing a box of winchester 32/20HV & it said only for rifle, it was not ment of use in revolvers made at that time.
Could be wrong but 32/20 & 32W.C.F. are not the same, 32W.C.F. is 32 special.0 -
ferguson, as noted in my first post, the use of the HV loading of .32 WCF *is* limited to 'modern' long arms designed for smokeless powder cartridges. However, most emphatically, you are incorrect that 32 WCF is the .32 Win Spl. - it is the .32-20. Most references list both names and I have had several examples of the ".32 W.C.F." on .32-20 rounds in my collection. I've sold off most of my commercial rifle ammo, but if I can find an example, I'll send you a scan. 0
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