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old Brown Bess?

albatrosdva
I have a most interesting old musket that I would like to know the value of or any information whatsoever. It has I think a British Brown Bess barrel and butt plate. markings on the barrel are very prolific. It seems if i remember correctly that it was made by one J. Brown. there is a mark on top GI. and several different numbers all over. there is also what apears to be a fleur de leis. The lock is worn so the writing is illegible. The insides and outside look like a French Charleville lock but the pan is not brass (1773?). The trigger guard looks as if it is british as to where the rifle sling hole is. the front of it does not look like any british ones that i've seen. My conclusion is that it is america. The stock is not military. probably american made also. Stock has been cut at the first ramrod pipe. Barrel is cut down to 20". the lock didn't fit the stock right for the touch whole in the barrel so the pan was filed down some. It has been together forever.
thanks for any help
sam
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Comments

9 comments

Date Votes
  • Der Gebirgsjager
    Looks like a job for:
    Norm Flayderman
    P.O. Box 2446
    Fort Lauderdale,
    Florida 33303
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  • 101AIRBORNE
    Forever is a long time. Suggest that Der may have the correct contact.
    Further, suggest that is a far cry from a Brown Bess. Parts do not add up! Perhaps a "forgerer" ? made up from many parts? Suggest posting a photograaph-then the experts, unlike me may call. Sounds like an interesting gun. Good luck. 101
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  • Iroquois Scout
    If at all possible please post a picture. The presents of the Fler de Leis would take this musket out of the British column. It could be a cut down French 1763 or maybe a 1777. Or more likely as has already been pointed out put together out of parts. At one time in Europe this type of gun was very common and was made up for the tourist trade. Belgum was where most of these were put together. In more then 40 years of dealing and collecting I have seen more then a few of these guns brought back from Europe as a "great rarity" which were in fact no more then parts guns. The fact that 20 inches or more have been cut off the barrel and the overall poor condition of the peice would mean that there would no collector value. However, I would still like to see it and maybe we can figure out what you have. Best of luck Scout
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  • rhmc24
    Above from Iroquois is pretty much on target. Assuming this is not a 'hobby' piece that someone made from parts, it could be the remains of something authentic. In the flintlock period in this country no gun parts were discarded and very many were assembled from random parts. Your description may indicate that. Some good pix will enable some qualified opinions. I have been in the restoration game for 40 years and have experience with scores of authentic and otherwise pieces. If you want to exchange emails, I am rhmc24@swbell.net. Hope this helps.
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  • albatrosdva
    correct the part about the trigger guard being american. it is also a brown bess. it broke off the end and was rounded off so it looked different. also the lock is british i'm pretty sure. the insides and out look like the british lock but i didn't think that the British would make a hammer with the hammer jaws screw inclosed in the circle instead of open (hope that was understandable i don't know terminology). as far as pics are concerned i haven't a digital camera so the pics are bad and you need detailed ones.
    sam
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  • captkirk3@dslextreme.com
    I'm not gonna get caught up in this frey until I can see some photos or get my hands on the actual piece....To many questions to ask and no way of varifying the answers....Almost sounds like a Forager piece...
    I think Craig is right...this is a job for Flaydermann.......

    Captain Kirk, Tech Staff
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  • Iroquois Scout
    You are correct that the British did not use the reinforced hammer on any of the "Brown Bess" models, however, the French used it from 1763 to the end of the flint lock period. I think that this is another indication that the musket was put together. What is the caliber of the barrel? That would help to determine who made the barrel. British barrels are usually of .75 to .80 caliber while French barrels are usually of .69 to .72 caliber unless, of course, it is a cut down Fusil then it should be of .65 caliber. You say that you think that the trigger guard is from a British musket, but which one? What do the final ends of the trigger guard look like, are they rounded or pointed or do they have a "pineapple" shape? Is the sling swivel attached to the trigger guard or to a lug in front of the trigger guard bow? What does the side plate look like? If you would, please describe the proof marks. Again, if you can post pictures,either to the forum at large or to us personally, it would help a lot. All of us who are interested in these old weapons would gladly try to help you identify this old musket, but we need something to go on. All the best, Scout
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  • albatrosdva
    the barrel is .75. i was wrong about the maker it is by G Parsons. the trigger guard is pineapple shaped with the sling swivel on the trigger guard not beside it. there is no sideplate as there is only one hole in the side (this is what makes me call it home made whether it is by an american or European there is no way to tell)the stock apears to be made for the parts as everything fits perfectly. i said it had been together forever because there is nice petina on the barrel but not where it was attached to the stock. the barrel i would think is british because it attaches with pins instead of bands. i have no explaination as the the fleur de leis though. The proof marks are GP, GI, G(crown)parsons, and the aforementioned fleur. that later is worn and i supose it could have been something else but it seems to be such. it seems that the French made a pinned musket in the early 1700s. can you find out any kind of date from G Parsons?
    thanks
    sam
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  • Iroquois Scout
    Ok Sam I think that we have something to go on now. I think that you are right, the musket is British. The "G P" is the final proof mark and should be capped by a crown. Also, on the barrel should be the letter "V" capped by a crown and stands for "Viewing" which was the rough proof before the weapon was finished. The letters "G I" Iam not sure of, but could be the inspector's initials. What you called a Fler de Leis is actually a pair of crossed scepters. They should have a crown over them and between the arms of the X formed by the scepters should be the letters B and C. Below should be either the letter P or V. This is the Birmingham proof mark and was not used until 1813. This would mean that your musket was originally a third model Brown Bess. Somewhere on the barrel and lock should be the Broad Arrow capped by a crown which is the government property mark. Also present should be a crown over the letters G R which stands for Georgius Rex or King George III. The butt plate should have a short upper tang, the front of the trigger guard has a pineapple final and the the lower end is pointed. The side plate should have been a short one with out a tail. The bottom of the lock plate is straighter then those that came before it. There should be no escutcheon plate behind the barrel tang. Tonight I will try to find something about the maker G. Parsons. The name rings a bell, but, I can't remember what. It is hell to get old! Scout
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