9MM outdated or not?
Another question, this one I am reluctant to ask, I know a lot of shooters out there love the 9mm. However I have read a few articals that suggest that, as a self defence round, the 9mm is less than desirable. I know the .45 ACP and the .40SW are great self defence rounds.....but can the 9mm hold it's own......please give me the pro's and con's on this load before I buy a pistol in it.
Thanx,
Justin
Thanx,
Justin
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I'm not really beholden to any one caliber. A well placed shot from a gun from 38 SPL/9mm on up will do very well thank you. One of the overwhelming arguments for a 38 or a 9mm is that you can afford to really practice and get good for a lot less money than a 40mm or 45 ACP will cost.
A whole lot of law enforcement and military people use 9mm and it's been in continuous use for nearly 100 years. There's no real problem with it, especially if you avail yourself of good modern hollowpoint ammo.
Three Precious Metals: Gold, silver and lead0 -
jmmsid.... Years ago when my dept adopted the 9mm the only rnds available were light 115 grain and 124 grain. They lacked the weight for deep penetration.
Later on the commercial ammo makers came out with the 147 grain bullets that greatly improved the 9 as a defensive and police round.
As eluded to above there is no substitute for well placed shots.
A hit in the heart with a 9mm is going to stop quicker than a liver hit with a .45. The heavier bullets are needed to reach the vitals or spine so they can be effective.
So, to answer your question, there is nothing wrong with the 9mm for defense. Pick a heavy hollow-point bullet to load your gun with.
Winchester 147 gr HP or black talons are a good choice.0 -
I agree with JMMSID in that the cheaper ammo (and lower recoil) allows people to practice more and thus are better shots. I have been seeing bulk ammo on .40 so they are obviously getting more popular. I shoot a 10mm (Glock 20) and my wife can shoot it too, but she can't shoot it enough to get good at it, so she still prefers the 12 shot S & W .22 because she is very good and comfortable with it.
I'm not saying that a .22 round will come close to a single 10mm round, but if a person can't hit an attacker with a gun (because they've never practiced with), then a smaller round (or a few) precisely placed will have a greater impact...
Point in case, I was rabbit hunting with my .22 and came across a wounded deer, I shot it once between the eyes dropping it, the deer had ran over a mile after the .338 mag hit it in the gut. I gave the hunter a piece of my mind before I gave him his deer.
It doesn't matter what you shoot, just shoot it well...0 -
You can tell by my screen name that I am firmly in the "big bullet" camp. Having said this, I've got to agree with anyone who says shot placement is everything and that the 147gr 9mm rounds ARE a huge leap to making it a more effective self defense load.
I disagree with mballi, the military purchases from the lowest bidder with a Mil-Spec product and Baretta just happened to be there with the best OVERALL solution to the aging M1911A1 problem. Chambered for standard NATO ammo, high capacity, easy and very basic user-level maintainace and the ability to withstand a large amount of punishment.
As far as law enforcement, it's my perception that most are using .40 Caliber S&W or Glock pistols. I can't name a department within 100 miles of where I live that does not. The 9mm "craze" was started mosty by the NYPD's purchase of 9mm Glock pistols based upon the FBI's and the Sandow ballistics report. A few years later this report was disputed and recanted. Oops. (Now, on the other hand, MOST european countries police forces use pistols chambered for .380 auto or as I like to call it, "3/4's of a 9"[xx(])
I carry a .45, .357 and a .40, but will still take my 9mm to the range to practice- you can't beat the cost of ammo, and many 9mm pistols are very accurate, natural "pointers" such as Browning Hi-Powers.
I guess the remaining question is: Are you looking for a home defense pistol or a concealed carry?
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
People
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Matt 45, full of useful info as always (and still laugh at the PETA stab).
You asked for the pro's and cons...
9mm pro's...
fairly effective as protection
cheap ammo
fairly accurate
guns easy to find in this caliber
many hi-cap magazines floating around since 9mm's were the craze around 1994 when the crime bill hit
low recoil
cheap reloads
lighter weight
generally cheaper guns
9mm cons...
Not as lethal as a bigger caliber - period!
As you can see there are actually many attributes to a 9mm, but the one con should warrent the most thought. As someone else said, 9's have been around forever (in some variant), so they must do something right.
I used to have a Desert Eagle .44 mag for my home defence gun, after 5 years I finally decided that I prefer 15 rounds in the magazine from my 10mm over 8 in .44 mag. And even though I shoot better with the 10, it also had twice as many in the mag and in a stress situation, I'd rather have a gun that I shoot the best, and has the power, and having an extra few rounds between my fingers gives me a little more confidence too.
If you haven't bought a pistol in this chambering. I'd borrow someones, or rent a few pistols at your local firing range. One 45 might just fit in your hand and shoot better than a 9mm.
Read the specs on the energy of the bullets, then shoot quite a few guns, don't pay attention to the caliber, then just buy the one you like the best... simple as that!
It doesn't matter what you shoot, just shoot it well...0 -
Im looking at a specific concealed carry gun in fact. Im looking at a walther p99. Ive been saving for an HK Expert and allready have accessories for it....as you can read in my previous post "HK EXPERT HI CAP MAG" Im having some problems with the legalities of high capacity magazines. The Walther is half the price of the HK. It seems to be a great light weight carry gun. However, I do like being able to get hi cap mags for my guns....and I do not believe there are any .40sw hi caps for the walther.....there are 9mm hi caps (same clip as the p88 I believe). Im just wondering if I should let go of my need for hi caps to gain the power of a 40sw. Overall question is, is the 9mm strong enough? I have been used to a .45 acp for a long time, hence my reluctancy to carry a 9mm. 0 -
We can feel your reluctancy... After all, it IS your life that your're dealing with. If you are fully comfortable with the 45, try a Glock 21, mags are high, but are still available. They hold 13 + 1 in the pipe. Or a 10mm Glock (model 20) holds 15 + 1 in the pipe, and you can get +2 extenders for the clip.
Another think that people don't often seem to say on here is to suggest the same sidearm and your main carry is, that way you can rob ammo from the other gun if one isn't functioning.
If your primary gun goes down, you can imagine that the situation will just get worse, the "bad guys" would most likely advance knowing you are down a gun, but if you returned with the same caliber then you'd probably retake the edge.
Well that's my 2cents worth (although it cost more than that for me to type all this) [;)]
It doesn't matter what you shoot, just shoot it well...0 -
Winchester 147 gr HP or black talons are a good choice.
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Few PD's or LEO agencies use that bullet weight. Experience has shown it is not that effective. The 9mm was laughed at well into the 1960's. The Browning HP's, P-38's and the S&W Model 39 were boat anchors in gun shops. It was "reinvented" when someone got the bright idea 6 shots wasn't enough. When the Beretta 92 came on the market it got a luke warm reception at best for several years. When the FAD hit the 9mm became a cure all. The race was on. Combined with high capacity it made everyone a walking Rambo. Then the lights dimmed on it when depts had failure after failure after failure in the street and excuses ran out. That crowd couldn't go back to the .45 cuz they bad mouth it to get to the 9mm. A real quandry to say the least. Then the .40 S&W came along and it's caught on as it should. It's a version of the .41 Magnum revolver load of sorts. The .45 got it's crowd followed by a small boatload of .357 Sig or 10mm fans.
The 9mm case is small and it has to be pushed to +p or +p+ levels to perform which beats the hell out of a good gun. In other normal loadings it's performance is marginal with any bullet.
It is cheap to shoot, low recoil and helps keep the gun size small.
No handgun is ideal, but the 9mm was simply reinvented after languishing since the turn of the century.
I recall the laughter when the Illinois state patrol went to the S&W Model 39 and then the model 59. They were considered a novelty in gun rags. The 9mm isn't outdated. There are just better choices out there. No handgun is GREAT....it's just more convienient0 -
Historically, the 9mm has killed more people than any other pistol round on this planet. Granted this has not been from a handgun, but rather the MP38/40 series of weapons. The other postings have provided much good imformation regarding the pro's and con's of this round. Bottom line is that ANY round is usable if that is what YOU have to work with.
Fortunately, unless hopped up on dope, humans are not nearly so determined to harm you as a four footed animal after having been wounded.
The only drawback is that if you ever have to defend yourself with a weapon, due to the current lawyer lottery, it is probably better to have only one tale to be told.0 -
"...the military purchases from the lowest bidder with a Mil-Spec product and Baretta just happened to be there with the best OVERALL solution to the aging M1911A1 problem." Nope. Your lot went to the Baretta because the rest of the NATO countries told the US that you had to start buying more stuff from the other NATO countries. Everything else is irrelevant. 0 -
The only drawback is that if you ever have to defend yourself with a weapon, due to the current lawyer lottery, it is probably better to have only one tale to be told.
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BAD LOGIC. The body will speak volumes. Using forensic methods they can now tell which bullet hit in which order. They can recreate using flow dynamics of blood splatters and other science to show the event to the point they can use a computer and SHOW what took place. They do this with auto accidents, airplane crashes, and now such things as murder. Besides YOUR memory will be faulty (false memory recall) and you might claim you fired two shots and they find four empty casings. It will be seen as deciet or lies and if you lied about that you lied about it all known as the "fruit of the poisonous tree." You may have your distances off, time lines off, and even events out of order. Don't think your word will be pristine. Doesn't work that way.0
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