Glaser vs. Hollow points

January 11, 2003 20:25

I think I'd use hollow point ammo for everything except for home defense where the possibility of shooting through a wall and injuring someone in another room. I guess the situation could come up in an urban defence setting as well. I guess then you'd have to take the moral delemna as to shoot and possibly injure someone or let the "bad guy" do whatever he was going to do...
For home use, in the above instance, I think I'd just use a short barreled shotgun.

It doesn't matter what you shoot, just shoot it well...

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nmyers

January 12, 2003 03:57

We have little real-world data on the effectiveness of "pre-fragmented" or "frangible" ammo such as Glaser. Few, if any, LE agencies use it, and there is no collection of incidents involving civilian use of various types of ammo. However, standard tests seem to indicate that it would perform well, especially in smaller calibers such as .25 & .32 which rarely expand soft/hollow points.

Minimal penetration and reduced richochets give pre-fragmented ammo a big advantage both inside & outside the house. In the final analysis, each of us must decide the level of threat & appropriate response in selecting both gun & ammo.

Neal

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competentone

January 12, 2003 05:45

BMMI,

I have seen (older) Dept. of Justice ballistics research which rates frangible rounds as being extremely effective in their potential to nuetralize (ie. incapacitate) an attacker. It's not "real world" statistics, but involved some pretty sophisticated analysis.

I have also heard interviews with doctors/emergency room workers/coroners relating to the effects of frangible rounds--words like "hamburger" are used to describe the wounds.

That said, I don't carry Glaser--the main reason is their powder blend. Try shooting some at night. I find the muzzle flash to be insane--it's not something I'd want if I had to use a firearm in self-defense, which probably would be happening at night.

I've found Corbon ammo to be the best in minimal muzzle flash; although most all ball/hollow point is better than Glaser's. If Glaser would start using a better powder blend, I would carry them.

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ebeshirs

January 12, 2003 07:08

All else being equal (in terms of stopping power), revolvers would be fine, but I would be very hesitant to carry them in auto-loaders. Being that most of the small, itty-bitty auto's are questionable on reliability as it is, it may really act up if you start using something other than the conventional bullet weights that it was designed for. Most "experts" will tell you to fire at least 100 rounds of your favorite self-defense ammo through your gun to assure reliability and of course with the price of Glasers, that's prohibitive.

"There's been more lost to indecision that wrong decision."

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Darrell

January 12, 2003 07:49

I have met Mr. Cannon at Glaser many times. I have obtained a lot of photos of Glaser wounds and watched this firm since the 1970's when they came on line. A problem is the urban legends and BS that surround them.
For one they WILL defeat a level 2a vest. The firm developed a BLACK tip Glaser that will do that. The original blue tip has proven to not only be effective but a surgeons nightmare. I have a photo of a wound that hit a man in the arm, exited and went into the rib cage. The xray shows the interior chest well peppered with the shot particles. The man died from loss of blood as a ER team doesn't have time to clamp off all the bleeders. They can't put the fluids in fast enough and by the time you hit the ER you leaked a lot.
I investigated a shooting with a .380 Glaser. A fellow was shot in the right cheek of his ass as he got out of a car. The guy bled like a pig and has massive blood loss and at the ER they had to debride a ton of tissue and the fellow had a big scoop like dent in his cheek after it was over. They left a LOT of the pellets in the wound because it was buried in muscle tissue and was harmless.
There are BS claims of Glasers not defeating leather coats etc. That is PURE BS. I had the chance to fire a LOT of Glaser. We found it would penetrate several pieces of sheet rock, but not even close to a conventional bullet. We shot a lot of blue tip thru leather coats and they were impressive. We put that BS urban legend to rest.
We fire them at windshields and they went thru and peppered the interior very well. We fired towards the back of a white leather seat and then marked the pellet holes.Anyone sitting there would have recieved many dozens of wounds and the pellets did penetrate the leather of the seat.
We then fired some in a full auto. With limited rounds we fired SIX 9mm blue tip Glasers. NO PROBLEM in a MP-5.
Of all the Glaser we found the .45 of course to be at the top for trauma production because of the volume of the load.
The newer gray tip is for more penetration (mostly to address the urban legends) and available.
I always use Glasers for my 2 inch .38 special and any handgun used for home defense.
In the late 80's I worked on the development of the BeeSafe bullets with the inventer who I think was in Canada. They are now offered by Corbon and available to handloaders which Glaser isn't.
BeeSafe was not only prefragmented, but the unique design allows for DEEP penetration. We found they would often exceed penetration against hard objects far superior to conventional bullets including vehicles.
The BeeSafe was also made for a shotgun slug but to be honest I thought it was probably the most devastating projectile against a human I had ever seen. We fired some into a car and it was like a bomb going off. Parts of the interior were shredded. I never saw it come onto the market.
Glaser and similar products have a place. and wise be the shooter that knows what that is.
Also Glasers are light and there is little recoil in most handguns, but muzzle blast is nasty giving the elusion of recoil. In such loads as .357 in a short bbl they are not unpleasant on recoil.

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Jim Rau

January 12, 2003 08:15

Darrell,
Thanks for the info!! Due to their cost I only fired a limited number of the glasers and they were the 'old' ones. I was not impressed. These rounds were made to be used in aircraft where you do not want target perferation. When I fired them a 1/4 ply wood they would penatrate if the hit was 90 dgree, but when you got about 30 degrees off they would not. Darrell, did you try any at other angles? I have heard good things (like the above) about the newer grasers. BUT DUE TO THEIR PRICE I HAVEN'T TESTED THEM. And as stated earlier, especialy with an auto, you need to fire several magazines of the ammo you carry to make sure it will function properly in your weapon, and to become familuar with it. I advise at least 50 rds. And for me, and most of us, this is cost prohibitive with glasers.
The current hollow point ammo was proven, in tens of thousands of actual shootings, to be very effective so I will continue to 'stake my life' on it and I would recommend the same to you.[^]

Self defence is an ablsolute and natural right. Keep your powder dry! J. Rau, Alaska

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Nighthawk

January 12, 2003 08:21

It seems if Darrell hammered it on the head.I agree,I do some Ballistics studying on a small bases,myself.Nothing like getting to meet someone who invented a cartridge.Darrell,did you say you had a web site that contained some of your findings?I would appreciate it if you would give it to me?And didnt the Inventer you named get killed in a car crash,a few yrs ago or was that someone else?

Thanks!!

Rugster

Toujours Pret

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cwinn

January 12, 2003 08:41

What about MagSafes ??? They are even more expensive than Glasers but are said to be more effective and devestating also. Anyone know anything about them?

FYI i shot some 9mm glasers at a piece of wood set in front water filled milk jugs (scientific huh?) and the jug literally exploded everywhere when hit. With regular HP ammo The results were much less dramatic.

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Jim Rau

January 12, 2003 08:50

I have have heard the same, but I can,t afford the use them. I need ammo I can afford to test, train with, and fire atleast every 6 mos. If I could afford it I would be driving a 'sports car', but my cowboy lincoln will have to do.[;)]

Self defence is an ablsolute and natural right. Keep your powder dry! J. Rau, Alaska

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Darrell

January 12, 2003 12:25

What about MagSafes ??? They are even more expensive than Glasers but are said to be more effective and devestating also.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have no time for Mag-Safe they were allegedly involved in the Strabourg goat fraud. They still send that garbage out with their orders. But that's another story.
ANY bullet can glance off a surface at odd or extreme angles. Also in a semi auto I put a Glaser, non-glaser, Glaser, non-glaser etc.
Never had an issue. In a revolver I use only Glaser. They firm has done exhaustive testing and they equal and clone conventional factory loads. If there is a problem I haven't heard it and they are shaped to feed and function unlike some hollowpoints or other bullet styles.
A guy named Richard invented BeeSafe and Kurt Cannon's father at Glaser invented them in the 70's. Not sure if both are alive or not.
Kurt is in fine health last time I talked with him.
When you call most of the time you get Kurt on the phone. Hell of a nice guy and very informative.

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Glaser vs. Hollow points

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