1873 Springfield
Hello. My wife recently inherited an old rifle from her father. I've identified it as an 1873 Springfield but thought some of you might assist in filling in the gaps.
The S/N is 102328. Her father had it "laquered" to preserve it. Wife immediately started taking down the wood and metal finish to "restore" it. I know, horrible idea. Value doesn't matter anyway as it will be a wall hanger for us. Wood is beautiful and I think I can blue the metal so it at least looks nice. Hardware (trapdoor breech etc) is in incredible good shape as are sights. Only missing pieces are the shoulder strap and the ramrod. Amazingly, her father (now 74) claims he tripped over this rifle while hunting in some woods in PA. Said it was buried in deep leaves. Not enough to rust for me to believe that story but who knows. The only thing I'm really confident in is that the rifle appears very original. I don't believe it's a replica or that any of the original parts have been replaced. Anyway, here's my questions.
1- This rifle has no cartouche on the side. Why do some old springfields have them and some do not?
2- This rifle doesn't have the eagle logo or "Springfield Armory" on the side of the breech as many seem to. I've seen others like this but don't know why some do and some don't. Do you?
3- The S/N appears to put this one in the 1879 manufacturing year. Can anyone confirm?
4- I've heard it's possible to tell from the S/N if a rifle was part of Custers 7th. Since his last stand was in 1876 I'm guessing this rifle couldn't have been part of his groups. What S/N brackets suggest possibly belonging to the 7th?
5- This rifle has three marks on the barrel, left side, near the breech. The first two are clearly the letters "V" and "P". The third looks like a symbol rather than a letter but is hard to make out. Any ideas on these marks?
Thanks for any information on this piece of history.
Mark
The S/N is 102328. Her father had it "laquered" to preserve it. Wife immediately started taking down the wood and metal finish to "restore" it. I know, horrible idea. Value doesn't matter anyway as it will be a wall hanger for us. Wood is beautiful and I think I can blue the metal so it at least looks nice. Hardware (trapdoor breech etc) is in incredible good shape as are sights. Only missing pieces are the shoulder strap and the ramrod. Amazingly, her father (now 74) claims he tripped over this rifle while hunting in some woods in PA. Said it was buried in deep leaves. Not enough to rust for me to believe that story but who knows. The only thing I'm really confident in is that the rifle appears very original. I don't believe it's a replica or that any of the original parts have been replaced. Anyway, here's my questions.
1- This rifle has no cartouche on the side. Why do some old springfields have them and some do not?
2- This rifle doesn't have the eagle logo or "Springfield Armory" on the side of the breech as many seem to. I've seen others like this but don't know why some do and some don't. Do you?
3- The S/N appears to put this one in the 1879 manufacturing year. Can anyone confirm?
4- I've heard it's possible to tell from the S/N if a rifle was part of Custers 7th. Since his last stand was in 1876 I'm guessing this rifle couldn't have been part of his groups. What S/N brackets suggest possibly belonging to the 7th?
5- This rifle has three marks on the barrel, left side, near the breech. The first two are clearly the letters "V" and "P". The third looks like a symbol rather than a letter but is hard to make out. Any ideas on these marks?
Thanks for any information on this piece of history.
Mark
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I think Custer's troops had the carbines rather than rifles. Beach 0 -
The man for this post is certainly Iroquious Scout, our resident expert on pre 1900 US Martial Arms. Until he logs on I'll attempt to give you a little bit of information. First off- STOP the restoration process! Leave this old war horse alone. The V P on the barrel, along with the symbol- which is an eagel, indicate the barrel was proofed. All 1873's after #50,000 had these markings on the barrels. Custer's troops used carbines and the "Custer Cut-off" is at #43,700. I believe that after mid-1876 the eagel over crossed cannons on the breech block was omitted and the rifles were then simply marked U.S. Model 1873. I can't remember the serial number ranges for these rifles so I can't tell you the date of manufacture, but I don't think any 1873 rifles were made after 1879. If the breechblock appears case hardened it was made with the water quenching method and that would be an 1877 rifle as the earlier guns were oil quenched and quite dark in color. The lack of a cartouche could either mean a replaced stock or the marking has simply worn off...or the stock was refinished and sanded. This is all I can tell you and once we hear from Scout you'll find out just how little I know about this subject! I'm anxious to read his post and expand my knowelege! Oh, welcome to GB!
Mark T. Christian0 -
1879-SN 100,396/119,273
Custer weapons cannot be documented but must fall within the following ranges:
12,000/18,500; 20,000/22,000; & 33,000/43,600 There are also a list of seventeen other characteristics they must have although it would be possible that in the intervening years they could have been modified. This is according to the record listed in the "Dixie Gun Works Catalog".0 -
The "Unknown" third proof mark on the barrel along with the "V" and "P" is a stylized EAGLES HEAD. This was a proof used by Springfield Armory. It was used as late as WW I on .45 autos inspected at or by employees of S A. 0 -
Wow... thanks for all the quick responses. I'll certainly ask the wife to lay off with the cleanup work at this point until we know more. The proof info was interesting. I'll look forward to any comments by Iroquious Scout as noted by Mark Christian. Fascinating piece of history if nothing else. I've already acquired a "period correct" set of five 45-70 rounds, a bayonet/sheath and a cartridge pouch (circa 1880's) for our display. Plan to build a nice wall hanging case display for the whole shebang. Should be fun. The history will make for a nice ID plate on the case. 0 -
I investigated a trapdoor that had been issued to my uncle as a member of state militia in WW one. It had no markings on the lockplate. I don't recall the source saying they are known as "Bannerman Guns", having been assembled from then surplus parts for sale. Some parts not available surplus were manufactured by/for Bannerman. Specifically mentioned were lock plates. On this one I also noted that the lock mount screws were different from original GI screws. Bannerman's was a NY dealer in surplus armaments for the best part of a century beginning just after the Civil War. Hope this helps. 0 -
Good morning Shadowhawke, Iam very interested in your find. You have already gotten some excellent information from the other posters. But let's take your questions one at a time: 1. The lack of a cartouche can mean several things, The stock could have been refinished and all marks removed. The stock could be an in field replacement which were not marked with a cartouche. The wood of the stock could be so worn that the cartouche can not be read. The cartouche on this rifle should be the letters E S A written in script. Check on the bottom of the stock just behind the trigger guard, there should be a large fancy letter "P". There are often small numbers or letters above this "P" and they are sub-inspectors marks. If they are there, then the stock is just worn. 2. I don't know what you mean by "Springfield Armory on the side of the breech", non of the Trapdoors are marked on the side of the breech. All are marked on top of the breech block just back from the hinge. Up to about serial number 90,000 the breach blocks were marked "Model 1873", Eagle Head, Crossed Arrows, U.S., reading from the hinge down toward the hammer. Later these markings were changed, but the blocks continued to be marked with the 1873 date until 1884. 3. Serial number 102328. This is a tough one as your serial number falls on the change between fiscal year 1878 and fiscal year 1879. In this period the Government fiscal year ran from July 4th to July 4th rather than from January to January, thus a rifle could have been made in May or June of calendar year 1879 but still dated as if made in year 1878. Think about it for a while and it will make sense. Other things to look for in post 1877 rifles are the new short wrist stock, gas escape cuts at the front of the receiver, a longer hinge pin and a higher lug on the ejector. 4. No, your rifle is not even close to the Custer serial number range. Besides, Custer's troops were issued carbines not rifles. The serial number ranges for the Custer carbines were given in the other posts so I won't repeat them here. If you want information on the Custer carbines E-Mail me through the GunBroker forum. 5. The barrel at the breech is marked "V", "P", Eaglehead. This is another indication that your rifle is not of the Custer group. Hope that the above is of some help to you. Scout 0 -
Thanks for the great information Scout, rhmc24 and everyone else. I thought the Bannerman theory was particularly interesting. I have no idea how one would prove this gun was refitted but bet an expert could identify the probability. It's quite amazing that this was literally tripped over during a hiking trip and found in this condition. Unfortunately, the wife did take some steel wool to the metal and stock and "cleaned" up quite a bit of the sealer her father had used to "coat" the rifle. Scout, I have no idea how I might tell if this stock has been sanded enough to remove the cartouche, if there ever was one. I looked closely for the "P" you mentioned behind the trigger guard. No sign of one. The tail of the stock (just in front of the but) is clearly stamped with the number 202 (about 1/2" tall numbers". I'm guessing this was a military or training rack number. I took several digital photos but am new to gunbroker.com and do not know who I would share them other than sending to someones personal email address. I apoligize for my misleading comment about the Springfield Armoury markings on the side of the breech. I should have said on the lock plate. Thanks to rhmc for giving me the right terminology. If anyone would like to see a photo let me know and I'd be happy to send one. I have a full length shot and lots of closeups. Thanks again!
Mark0 -
Good afternoon Shadowhawke, Thank you for your kind words. I have much more information on Trapdoor Springfields then I put in my other post,but, didn't know how deep into it you wanted to get. Is the fact that the lock plate on your rifle has no markings do to corrosion or are there just no markings? Usually, Bannerman rifles can be spotted by their poor workmanship and the mismatched parts. A picture would help a lot. If you don't know how to post a picture on this sight, leave a message for Black Roses over on the discussion forum and Iam sure that she will either post it for you or tell you how to do it. One way to tell if the stock has been sanded is to look at the wood to metal fit. If the metal is wider then the wood, then it is a good bet that the wood has been sanded. The lock plate should be flush with the wood, not stand away from it. This is also true of the butt plate. You are most likely correct that the numbers ahead of the butt plate tang are rack numbers. In my collection I have several rifles that have regimental, company and rack numbers, while others have only the cartouche and proof marks. Best of luck Scout 0
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