Imported Hi capacity mags
This question is a little out there, but here goes:
Hi-capacity magazines (say 15 round clips for a handgun) may be sold to civilians if they were manufactured before September 13th 1994. I think this is common knowledge. My question is, can "pre-ban" mags from and in other countries be sold to U.S. civilians? For instance, would it be legal for someone in another country to sell me a pre-ban mag? It seems like there is some kind of importing issue involved here (form 6?) but I'm not sure. I hope I've stated this question clearly enough to get it answered. Thanks for your input.
Hi-capacity magazines (say 15 round clips for a handgun) may be sold to civilians if they were manufactured before September 13th 1994. I think this is common knowledge. My question is, can "pre-ban" mags from and in other countries be sold to U.S. civilians? For instance, would it be legal for someone in another country to sell me a pre-ban mag? It seems like there is some kind of importing issue involved here (form 6?) but I'm not sure. I hope I've stated this question clearly enough to get it answered. Thanks for your input.
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If you show up at customs with a high cap mag the burden is on the GOVERNMENT to prove when they were made and of course that isn't possible. A lot of commercial airline pilots bring their high cap mags back from various sources. The only exception is magazines exclusive to a gun that was only made after the ban date.
This is why the ban has been silly and uneffective. That is why newe Glock mags we are seing coming in from out of the U.S. are now stamped. " Not for sale in the U.S.A." Until a short time ago pilots and others brought back high cap Glock mags from various nations and they didn't have the LEO ONLY stamped on them and a serial number because there was no need for them to do that in other nations.0 -
I don't believe they can be imported regardless when they were made. If as Darrell describes you show up at customs with a couple make sure you also have the weapon they go to. If not you'd look awful stupid trying to explain why you took mags on vacation but not the weapon they went to. 0 -
I've read the regs carefully, and was unable to find a specific prohibition against importing pre-ban mags into the US. However, it is obvious to anyone that the intent of Congress was to prevent anyone in the country from obtaining any hi-cap mags made after 9/13/94. As often happens when new laws are passed, and regs are written, there are some circumstances that weren't anticipated, and some people try to take advantage of what they perceive to be a "loophole". These are usually "corrected" by changes in regs, or decisions by the enforcing agencies.
Yes, the burden of proof that you violated the law is upon the government. However, the burden of posting bond, paying lawyers, and explaining to your employer why you were arrested is yours. We're just talking about mags here; is it worth the consequences?
Neal0 -
I have to disagree with Darrell. While the burden of proof is on the government to prove whether or not a magazine was made prior to the ban date when posessed in the USA, importation is a totally different matter. It will be up to you to establish to the satisfaction of US Customs that the magazines were either manufactured prior to 1994 or you took them abroad with you and are now returning home with them. Bringing items into the US is subject to YOU being able to establish that what you want to bring in is legal in this country.
The easiest way to return a legitimately owned magazine is to have filed a Customs declaration form for "US Goods Returning From Abroad". File this with Customs before you depart, have it stamped, and keep the copy with you. You just show the form upon your return and you are set to go. This is the same form used for watches, cameras, and other items. I have used this procedure many times when I have taken an automatic knife to Europe. The Microtech has a serial number which is recorded on the form. I have simply produced this form and my "switchblade" and I breeze through Customs when returning home.
To bring in other high cap mags purchased abroad you will have to import them and that will mean supporting documentation to prove that the magazines were produced prior to the ban. For all intents and purposes private individuals will find the paperwork more trouble than it is worth for importing 5 Glock magazines. If you want to import large quantities of magazines you will need to be a licensed importer. Some hi caps like original HK-91 magazines are easy to document since nearly all are date stamped. A Glock magazine would be tougher. I'd concentrate more on making sure the ban sunsets next year, then importing your own hi caps won't even be an issue.
Mark T. Christian0 -
You can disagree all you want. But the burden is on the government to PROVE when they were made. NOT YOU.
Airline pilots have brought in mags for ages and they can be imported. I've bought a lot of Browning High Power mags from foreign sources and listed on the customs form what they were. NO problem.
Same with some high cap glock mags for my M17. maybe customs is asleep on the job.
NOW..here is an excerpt from ATF on the enforcement of the law.
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Finally, the statute establishes rules for prosecuting a person charged with an unlawful transfer or possession of a device. If a person so charged asserts that one of the two exceptions applies, the statute places the burden of proof on the Government and provides that the lack of a serial number is a presumption that the device is excepted. 18 U.S.C. 922(w)(4).
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If you claim the mag was made prior to the ban date the BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE GOVERNMENT, and no manufacturer can tell them, nor can they determine WHEN they were made. For YEARS Glock made mags and ONLY serial numbered those IMPORTED into the U.S. which was and is a small part of their market. it would be stupid to serial number mags and stamp on them LEO"only" type stuff if they were sold in Holland.
That did change about a year ago (obvious pressure from our govt) to mark their foreign mags "Not for sale in the U.S." etc.
The ATF did try to stop importation early on when this law went into effect, claiming it ONLY applied to magazines that were IN the U.S. at the time the law went into effect. It "sounded good." HOWEVER the lawyers got ahold of that idea and ATF said this....
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This interpretation failed to account for the date in the statutory
definition of ``large capacity ammunition feeding device.'' The
definition by its terms covers only devices manufactured after the date of enactment. Consequently, a device manufactured on or before the date of enactment is not a ``large capacity ammunition feeding device'' within the meaning of the statute, regardless of its size or capacity.
Therefore, these pre-enactment items are simply not subject to the
marking requirements or prohibition on transfer and possession.
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Importers for example find 5,000 Browning High Cap mags. All the government asks them to do is provide (very very vague language) to show they were made PRE ban. If they come from Canada for example Canada gives the importer a letter saying they have had no mags made for the military since 1969 (example)....so IN they come.
A huge amount of Taiwan high cap mags for Beretta 92's just came in. The guns were ordered WITH MAGS prior to the ban date.
As for individuals you don't have to declare then when you LEAVE the country, so customs has NO clue you left with them. A lot of comp shooters go to South Africa etc., taking their mags with them.
When they return they can claim them as their own (if asked) and few are. Back to the burden of proof as to WHEN they were made.
ATF has a form 6A that a person can fill out, but again the burden is on the ATF to prove date of manufacture. In the language of some decisions they have tried to make you show some evidence of when they are made. " I don't know." will work. In fact ATF admits they can 't tell. here is the actual law. Note the last part. If that isn't clear enough I don't know what is.
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18 U.S.C. sec. 922 (w):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection.
(3) This subsection shall not apply to--
(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);
(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials;
(C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving ammunition, of a large capacity ammunition feeding device transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or
(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of any large capacity ammunition feeding device by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.
(4) If a person charged with violating paragraph (1) asserts that paragraph (1) does not apply to such person because of paragraph (2) or (3), the Government shall have the burden of proof to show that such paragraph (1) applies to such person. The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1).
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Well? I had some customs officers at the range yesterday and asked. they were told that unless it was a huge amount (more than personal use) not to bother beyond examing the magazine for a serial number or other marking showing date of manufacturer. To date I do not know of ONE person who has been charged with this law in the U.S. or at our borders. The flow of high cap AK-47 mags continues with little problem. Same can be said for Browing High Power, a lot of Beretta 92's, and others. The law is so lame there appears little doubt it will be allowed to sunset. Your milage may vary.0 -
Well Darrell, I think I said in my post that You only needed to be an importer if you planned on bringing in large quantities of magazines- beyond what would be reasonable for personal use. You mention the need for supporting documantation for the 5000 Browning magazines- I agree and said so in my post. I never said for a momment that these pre 1994 magazines could not be imported (did you get the idea that I did)? I re-read my post and I can't see where we disagree, other than where the burden of proof is for importing items which may or may not be prohibited into the United States.
By the way, I have used ATF Form 6 on two occasions to import firearms and it is only used for firearms and ammunition importation. With that form the burden of proof was on me to prove that the two firearms I imported from Italy were not prohibited...and they were not. Licensed importers would actaully use ATF Form 4522- International Import Certificate. This is used to certify that any articles imported from abraod on the US munitions list (like firearms components (magazines) are legal for importation. Form 6 takes you no where on firearms parts- you need the entire gun to use Form 6.
I believe he fact no one has been prosecuted for importing magazines made after the ban only means somebody is asleep. I doubt that too many people have been prosecuted for putting a flashider on a post ban semi-automatic rifle, but that does not mean it is legal to do so. I guess since I have an FFL and my livelyhood riding on obeying the firearms laws I tend to look at them in the strictest sense. No one is stopping anyone from putting a few Glock magazines in his bags and trying his luck, it will probably work. This paragraph is only my opinion and I do not suggest that anyone attempt this.
Now Darrell, please do not get the idea that I chose to disagree with you only because it was you who posted on this- I ENJOY reading your posts (and agree with you most of the time)- especially those old cop stories. I just can't get enough of those!
Mark T. Christian0 -
Unless their view has changed in recent times, the administration of gunbroker believes there is no law prohibiting the importation of pre-ban hi-cap magazines and allows such transactions on their web site. I don't want to go into it again or get in any arguements, but refer you to the last such post I responded to.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36894&SearchTerms=canada
Oh, thought I'd add, something of a war story. I know a Yonker's cop who was making runs to Canada to buy hi-cap mags about three years ago. He was wondering if I wanted in on the action. I declined, believing it must be illegal. He insisted it was perfectly okay. I figured he was trying to sting me. At any rate, at least one New York police officer was doing it some three years ago and believed it was okay.
Responded Later: Oh!
To err is human, to moo is bovine.0 -
boeboe, we all agree that it is legal to import a preban magazine, the question is whether or not you need to PROVE it is preban before Customs will clear it into the country. Any magazine made before the cut off date in 1994 is free to travel through open commerce- but how do you prove its "born on date" and do you have to when you appear at Customs with your 10 new BM-59 magazines you just bought in Brescia? By the way, if you ever go to Italy boeboe, I can give you the name of a great little gunshop very near the Beretta factory- it is run by a very nice woman and her husband and they are true Beretta fanatics...perhaps not quite at your level however!
Mark T. Christian0
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