.35 rem vs .30/30
I've had several people tell me (some from here) that the .35 was good for black bear and that the .30/30 was too small. I looked at three different companys ballistic charts and they all show the .30/30 carries more energy down range. Can someone explain this to me?
Confused Phil
Confused Phil
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With the 30-30 you are limited to bullets in the 150-170 gr range, with the 35 rem you can go to 220. Yes the bullets in the 30-30 have a better balistic coef, but neither is a long range cartridge, so that doesn't come into play. I wouldn't hesitate to take my 35 after bears.
My border collie is smarter than your honor student.0 -
35 rem is better in the brush and thick. 0 -
I understand th bullet weight part but isn't it about the force or enegry that the bullet carries that gives it the knockdown power. That's what I'm after. All the charts say the .30/30 carries MORE energy. Am I wrong? or do I just not get it?
Still Confused Phil0 -
Charts shouldn't be taken as the ultimate answer. I have guns chambered for both and have hunted both calibers for better than 30 years. All other things being equal the 35 puts 'em down quicker. The heavier bullet has more penetration and deals better with bone.
Both are short to medium range rounds working best in heavy brush in carbine or other short barrel setups.
Will a 30-30 take a black bear ... yep! But given a choice I'll take the 35 for the heavier bullet.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
I've taken lots of Deer in all sizes with a 30/30 and 150 grain bullets, I think it performs impressively at appropriate ranges for the cartridge. I would never hesitate to take a Black Bear with a 30/30. The .35 is a fine round as well but I would never leave a 30/30 at home to take a .35 in it's place, numbers don't lie the 30/30 has more remaining energy than a .35. 0 -
That's kind of the answers that I was looking for. Even though you don't exactly agree. I guess my bottom line question was if a .30/30 was good for black bear as well as the whitetail I normally hunt. I found some HEAVILY wooded private land to hunt next year and didn't want to haul my much longer m70 through all that stuff. I wanted to use that for the fields that border it where I may get a 200-250 yard shot.
Thanks for your input.
Not so confused Phil0 -
Get yourself a 300 Savage or 250-3000 Savage 99 and leave the 30/30 at home.
Check the numbers.
Armcandy0 -
Guntech59.
I am still amazed at how the old cartidges don't work anymore.
Them dang bears and elk believe everything they read in the hunting/shooting magazines!
The 30-30 would be fine at distances limited to upwards of 150 yards and so would the 35 rem. You may even squeeze a bit more distance if you are familar with the point of impact the rifle shoots well enough.
You have an advantage with both.
Both are typically offered in either a lever or pump gun. Both configurations lend themselves nicely to quick follow up shots.
The ballistics of the 30-30's give a smaller pill the advantage of a bit deeper penetration. Which...compared to the 35's higher weights of 200-250 grains, the 35's is on par for penetration.
For bear you want good penetration. Punch two holes and the follow-up is a lot simpler. Black bears aren't known for being super difficult to kill, but they do have bigger bones than deer that play heck with bullets. Not to mention a heavy fat layer that plugs the wound, making a short tracking job sometimes very tedious. A few years back one of the top 5 largest bears taken in PA was with a 30-30 and he weighed in over 700 pounds!
So take the rifle you desire. Put the point of aim in the middle of the boiler room (because the black bears longer belly hair makes them appear deeper than they really are) and shoot. If he gets to running and you're sure you planted one...keep crankin' the action.
Old rifles are some of the most enjoyable arms to tote will hunting.
And...good luck!
email me at bill@ArmChairHunter.com0 -
Who makes a factory load in anything bigger than 200 grain for the .35Rem ?
God gave us all a gift. Have you found yours yet ?0 -
No one that I have seen but, I am closer to the answer to my question. If (by the charts) the .30/30 has more energy left at 100 yards, why isn't it a BETTER choice for black bear and deer than the .35 rem. Is it weight?
I thought the energy had to do with a speed/weight calculation. More energy equals more knockdown power? True or not?
Armcandy - I was comparing the two bullets mentioned and trying to better educate myself not looking for a suggestion. Thanks for your input though.
PHIL0 -
One point that has been missed and would explain why people erroniously consider the 30-30 a more powerful cartridge than the 35 Rem. is the amount of frontal mass the 35 has compared to the 30-30. Since there is a much larger cross-section on the 35, it slows down in the wound channel faster than a 30-30, and thus transfers its energy in a shorter, more destructive manner. The fairly blunt nose section on a 35 Rem makes the kinetic energy stored in the bullet transfer MUCH quicker and with a much greater hydraulic shock, and will have a tendency to perform (mushroom) more efficiently. Add to this calculation that with handloaded 250 gr Speer softpoints you are adding 70 grains weight to the top weight a 30-30 can spin stabilize, and the comparison starts to look much more disparate when comparing the terminal ballistics of the 35 Rem to the 30-30 Winchester. No comparison...the 35 Rem has more knockdown power, and will generally perform much better in dense flesh or through the twigs and leaves when shooting in the heavier woods.
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"When I was 14 I used to marvel at how ignorant my old man was...by the time I was 21 I was truelly amazed at how much the old bugger had learned in the intervening 7 years!" Samuel Clemens
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)0 -
Energy will create more of the so called (knock down power)!!!!!
Speed translates to energy, and a heaver bullet carries it longer if it's started at the same velocity.
I personally have never seen any cartridge literally knock anything down.
They might tip over or fall down from a well placed spine shot, but I never seen one knocked down by a bullet. If all that knock down power was worth much it would seem to me that it would even move a critter after it was down if you hit him or her again.
As in all cases it's the bullet that counts more than the caliber it's used in.
Gun control is hitting what your aiming at.0 -
Yo Bruce, you might want to check with Jeff Cooper on that bullet is more important than bore size thing!! HA!HA! He seemed to be a pretty big proponent of the 'bring a 45' or don't go to the fight at all thing. I have seen game literally knocked off its' feet in the field, but then again not many people USE a 470 nitro-express to hunt Bambi like my old friend Walt S.
I agree with you that bullet performance is very important, but you cannot argue physics, and a larger cross section therefore causing a wider wound channel would almost ALWAYS be preferable to a light bullet going like a bat out of hell and bouncing off the shoulder blade of 'ol Blackie and making him proportionately more angry than dead. If the lighter bullet is deflected inside the animal by bone mass and does not penetrate the boiler room, the extra 500 fps won't make a bit of difference. When hunting heavy boned/bodied animals, my advice would in nearly ALL cases be to go with a big fat nose on that bullet. In animals that have a lighter bone structure, I agree 100% with you...speed kills. If you have a tough Bruin to tackle, 35 cal is the lightest (smallest diameter) bullet I would be tempted to use.
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"When I was 14 I used to marvel at how ignorant my old man was...by the time I was 21 I was truelly amazed at how much the old bugger had learned in the intervening 7 years!" Samuel Clemens
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)0 -
1KYDSTR and MRBruce,
Energy does NOT equal knockdown power.
Energy is the paper calculation of speed converted to heat.
Here's proof:
35 Rem/200grain Hornady/Velocity 2000/2000 shows max in Hornadys 5th Edition.
100 yard energy = 1,344
200 yard energy = 1,008
30-30/150grain RN/Velocity 2300/again max in 5th edition.
100 yard energy = 1,175
200 yard energy = 762
NOW...
257 Roberts/117grain BTSP/velocity 2,900/max per Hornady's 5th.
100 yard energy = 1,843
200 yard energy = 1,545
So, if energy was the secret, "guntech59" should put his rifle up for sale on GUNBROKER and buy a 257 Roberts and shoot his bear with that.
email me at bill@ArmChairHunter.com0 -
Well, I have been patiently waiting for it to get to this point and finally we arrived. What it boils down to is the ongoing argument about smaller, hyper velocity bullets versus Large heavy, slower bullets. The argument has been going on for years and I have seen and heard otherwise knowledgable and articulate men nearly come to blows over it. I don't think it will be settled here either. Both (30/30 or .35 Remington) will do the job right if the bullet is placed in the right place at a reasonable distance. A higher velocity smaller bullet works on hydraulic shock(called knock-down power by its deciples) and the larger bullet with heavier weight and large frontal area work by a combination of hydraulic shock and a large wound channel. Hydraulic shock(knock-down power) works just fine up to a point. The weight of the animal versus the weight of the bullet is the important thing here. The larger the animal(mass), the less hydraulic shock effects it and that goes for the big bores too. That is the reason that an elephant would simple walk away from a hit by a 30/30 or a .35 Remington unless it was placed in the brain from a very sort distance--like a few feet away. I don't think a brain shot from a 22/250 would even get to the brain unless it was a fmj up close. The main thing that works as animal weight goes up is penetration and bullet diameter second. That's the reason most professionals in Africa use large bore rifles loaded with solids when backing up clients on very large animals. Well, I'll get off my soapbox because it would take far more time to fully explain what I am saying--suffice it to say that both camps of thought are right up to a point and then both are in a little over their heads-in the slippery stuff that is. Very few things in life lend themselves very well to absolutes. My opinion anyway. Jim 0 -
Thanks for all the info and opinions! I guess I let too many numbers get in my head. Sometimes I hate those ballistic charts. Especially MANUFACTURERS ballistic charts.
The voices in my head said to go with the .35. I can rest now.
PHIL0
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