NEW old Winchester Model 12 16.Ga.
Hi all. I recently acquired a new baby so to say, and I have a few questions
Winchester Model 1912 16ga. "Field Grade" Shotgun. Great grandpa's, then grandpa's then dad's now mine. Will be child's, grand child's so on so forth. Un-Blemished, Un-Altered, near as perfect as the day it left the shelf.
Serial Number on receiver and action read 102,5##
Right side of barrel reads - "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN CONNECTICUT U.S.A.PAT.JULY.21.1896 FEB.22 JUNE.14.1898 SEPT.7.1909 MAY.17.24.31 JUNE.7.14.28 JULY 5.12.1910 JULY.22.1913
Left side of barrel reads - 1st line - Trade Mark 2nd line - Nickel Steel -- WINCHESTER -- MOD.1912. 16GA. FULL 3rd line - REG.IN.US.PAT.OFF.&.FON. 2 3/4 IN CHAMBER.
On top of the receiver and barrel there is what looks to be an oval with W,I,and P in the middle merged together.
**NOTE** A poly or "twist" choke has been added to the barrel. As far as I know. The choke tube was removed, and the adapter for the poly was screwed into the existing threads. A poly choke allows you to make "on the fly" adjustments to your choke without lugging extra tubes and a choke key around. simply grasp the choke and turn it to the desired setting indicated by an abbreviation and arrow on the choke itself. Very neat concept.
Wood - 98% - Near perfect.
Metal - 98% - Slight discoloration of the magazine tube caused by the movement of the pump handle. Normal use.
Questions.
1 Have any of you ever shot one of these. How do they handle
2 is this gun suitable for 2 3/4 in "hot" reloads
3 what is a current ballpark value of the gun. I have no clue how much it's worth
Thanks Andrew
Winchester Model 1912 16ga. "Field Grade" Shotgun. Great grandpa's, then grandpa's then dad's now mine. Will be child's, grand child's so on so forth. Un-Blemished, Un-Altered, near as perfect as the day it left the shelf.
Serial Number on receiver and action read 102,5##
Right side of barrel reads - "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN CONNECTICUT U.S.A.PAT.JULY.21.1896 FEB.22 JUNE.14.1898 SEPT.7.1909 MAY.17.24.31 JUNE.7.14.28 JULY 5.12.1910 JULY.22.1913
Left side of barrel reads - 1st line - Trade Mark 2nd line - Nickel Steel -- WINCHESTER -- MOD.1912. 16GA. FULL 3rd line - REG.IN.US.PAT.OFF.&.FON. 2 3/4 IN CHAMBER.
On top of the receiver and barrel there is what looks to be an oval with W,I,and P in the middle merged together.
**NOTE** A poly or "twist" choke has been added to the barrel. As far as I know. The choke tube was removed, and the adapter for the poly was screwed into the existing threads. A poly choke allows you to make "on the fly" adjustments to your choke without lugging extra tubes and a choke key around. simply grasp the choke and turn it to the desired setting indicated by an abbreviation and arrow on the choke itself. Very neat concept.
Wood - 98% - Near perfect.
Metal - 98% - Slight discoloration of the magazine tube caused by the movement of the pump handle. Normal use.
Questions.
1 Have any of you ever shot one of these. How do they handle
2 is this gun suitable for 2 3/4 in "hot" reloads
3 what is a current ballpark value of the gun. I have no clue how much it's worth
Thanks Andrew
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Correction serial number is the same on receiver and BARREL. nor receiver and action 0 -
Hello Andrew...
Unfortunately, your old Model 1912 has apparently been refinished, and is post factory altered. Based on the serial number, it was originally manufactured circa 1915/1916. What I find really strange is that you mention that it is marked "2 3/4 IN Chamber". Winchester reputedly did not switch to that chamber length for the 16 ga. until 1927 (it was originally made in 2 9/16-inch).
The Poly choke is definitely a non factory add-on, and as such, it severely hurts the value of the gun. The buttstock shows strong signs that it has been refinished, and I highly suspect that the receiver/frame and barrel have been reblued. The recoil pad is not factory original either.
As for what loads you can safely shoot in it, nearly any commercially made 16 ga. ammo is fine (though I would steer clear of steel shot shells). Model 1912/12s are sweet handling guns, and almost never malfunction or break.
The current (collector) value on your gun is something less than $250.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
As far as I've been told by all 3 of the generations, and again by my father just now the gun has never been in a shop. Replacement of the magazine tube spring, and the mainspring has been all that's ever been mentioned, not even a touchup re-blue.
I didn't figure the buttplate was original. got any lead on an original one?
As for the stock how can you tell it's been refinished. My great, granddad and grandad on that side were experienced carpenters so it may have been sanded a bit at one point
Knowing this, and the addition of an original buttplate what would the value be.
Also the barrel may say 2 9/16ths. the magnifying glass I was using was a crappy one. and my eyesight isnt the best0 -
Hello Andrew...
The barrel (and the rest of the gun) was most likely reblued when the Poly choke was installed. The blueing appears too deep blue for an original Model 1912.
The early Model 1912 16 gauge guns with 2 9/16-inch chambers were not marked... Winchester did not begin marking the chamber length until they switched to the longer shell lengths in the late 1920s. What I suspect, is the the gun was rechambered (and marked with the new length) at the same time the Poly Choke was added.
As to the buttstock, it has much too high of a gloss on it to be factory finish. As for a replacement butt plate, you first need to determine if the stock is still original full length (un-cut). Many times when a recoil pad was added, the stock was cut to fit it. If that is the case, then it is a waste of time trying to re-install an original black hard rubber butt plate.
I have been a long time Winchester collector, and as such, I have looked at Thousands of old Winchester firearms. What may look "right" to most people, stands out like a sore thumb to me, and your Model 1912 is screaming at me.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Hi Andrew-- I know Bert will step back in...[evening my friend]...but the stock is a much higher gloss than a 1912 would have, and the bluing appears much darker. The size of the chamber was not stamped unless it was rebored. The installation of the Poly-Choke alone hammered the value.
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
See!!! I told you he'd show up... Dang dialup.
Don't say a word Bert.. its true..[8D]0 -
Hello agoetz: Well it's nice to have a family gun. However buy looking at your pictures, your gun is definately not original. This gun originally had a 2&9/16 chamber. The fact that it now says 2&3/4 just means it has been opened up. Winchester didn't start marking chambers until 1927, when they changed the 16ga and 20 ga to 2&3/4. Alot of people sent there older guns back to the factory to have the gun opened up. Winchester would run the roll die over the barrel, thus marking it. Most gunsmiths would just steel stamp 2 3/4 on the barrel.
don't worry about the butt stock finish, it's not original. that is the last style of butt stock, which came out in the 1957/58 time frame. Although Winchester did offer Poly Choked guns, that wasn't until the 1950s, they were not invented until after WWII. So that's not original, if it was the barrel would not have been stamped FULL. It also has what's known as a "Williams Giant Head Safety", that's not original. If I had to guess, it's been reblued, the receiver and barrel are to close in color, for an almost 90 year old
gun. How ever, if the factory opened up the chamber, they would reblue the gun.
I do not recommend "hot reloads", standard 16ga lead load of 1 1/8 oz of lead is as "hot" as I would go. Value, well with all the modifications, $200-$300. Still a great shooter.
Regards Dave0 -
Dave... good catch on the buttstock[^] I glossed over the fact the pistol grip was not correct for an early Model 1912.
Bob... you are simply just too old (and you type way too slow[:D])
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
That's ok-
Family value is the most important. I bet they did send it to the factory to open it up. My grandfather was always known for doing everything the right and proper way. The manufacture date is 1914 according to Winchester. In my limited collection it is by far my most favorite. The poly choke seems to be really neat, an I'm guessing with the vents, also acts as a muzzle brake/flash supressor?
Check out
http://home.comcast.net/~agoetz2005
in the photo gallery are pictures of my other guns
still to be added is a single shot Remington rolling block .22. it's older than time to me.
Also I am getting a few presents for Christmas hopefully
1868 Remington Navy, all original - 95% finish
Springfield 1903. Pre WWII Unfired
1917 Lee Enfield. Pre WWII Unfired
My grandfather had almost 300 guns in an 7x9room when he passed away. I am trying to acquire as many as I can to keep them in the family, and away from the "less than desireable" other grandchildren that'll toss them in the attic and forget them.
If any of you are familiar with Yeck's Antique Firearms in Dundee MI. Let me know, I may have seen you in there one day when I was looking through eveything
Andrew
I am also told tucked away in the room is an all original Iron frame Henry, appraised somewhere in the $20-30,00 range0 -
That was a good call Dave..weren't those stocks kinda curved from grip to toe??. Andrew is fortunate you showed up so he could get real professional advice!!!!
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
Old?..Its your bedtime Bert!!!0 -
Good evening Bob: Well the first style was known as the "Pearch Belly", but they had the long wrist and small pistol grip. LOP was only 13&5/8's. The second style still had some Pearch belly, but a shorter wrist with a little fuller pistol grip, and the LOP went to 14& 1/8th., the 3rd style did away with the Pearch belly all together, and the 4th style which you see in the picture hear had the hugh pistol grip.
Bert/Bob you guys didn't catch the safety button! Your slipping!! [:D]
Regards Dave0 -
Bedtime[?]... you might be right[|)]
Dave... there was so much wrong with that gun that I stopped looking at all the little details... but you are correct, I should have noticed the safety button.
Andrew... Hangfire (Bob) and Dave (only winchesters) are inhabitants of the PRK (Peoples Republic of Kalifornia... and pity their poor souls). I am the smart one (located in Washington a.k.a. the Evergreen State).[:D]
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
SAFTEY BUTTON???I had to go back and look after you mentioned it!!! Didn't get past the gloss the first time...[8D]
Nite everone...
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
BTW Andrew..looks like you've got some mighty nice firearms in your future. I wish you luck!!!0 -
Well I don't suppose it matters, but before the pictures I had just wiped the gun down with oil to get all of the prints off. That may account for some of the gloss. Now that I go look at it it has a nice flat sheen on it, also the light I was using was a H:O blue Flourescent that may also account for some of the shee.
another thing it has no rear sights. do you just line up the ridges on the reciever with the front bead, or is it missing something else.
also an original 1914 unaltered model 12, how much would it be worth. In the "gun room" All three models sat to varying degrees of condition. I believe the riot gun is gone now, but it may still be there. how much would each of the others or mine be worth if unaltered?
Andrew0 -
Never fire hot loads in a Nickel Steel barrel. Factory loads should be fine. I have a Model 12 16ga with a polychoke,but it doesn't have the compensator. The polychoke may hurt the resale value,but it makes for an excellant field gun. Nothing handles better than a Model 12. 0
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