30-06 Military Ammo
From the inception of the "06" for World War I and World War II guns, including the 1903, 1903A3, M-1 Garand, it appears there was many makers of ammo, at least from the assorted headstamps I've found. I would assume there was even a lot of "foreign" ammo made as I have seen some of that also. I have two questions.
First, what is the history of 30-06 military rounds marked "DEN 43," and second, what was the loading specs for the "LC Match" marked ammo of the 60's? What did they use for a bullet and what was it's weight? Powder? etc.? Appreciate your insight.......
Henry Ford stated: "There is no one more useless than a Convict, except perhaps, those that guard them. This was his reason NOT to hire either one of them!
First, what is the history of 30-06 military rounds marked "DEN 43," and second, what was the loading specs for the "LC Match" marked ammo of the 60's? What did they use for a bullet and what was it's weight? Powder? etc.? Appreciate your insight.......
Henry Ford stated: "There is no one more useless than a Convict, except perhaps, those that guard them. This was his reason NOT to hire either one of them!
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Hi Judge Roy,
The DEN43 headstamp stood for Denver Ordinance Plant and were manufacturered in WWII only. All production was corrosive.
I don't know anything about the LC stuff but assume someone here will fill you in.
Regards,
Heavyiron[8D]
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
The M72 Cal .30 Match cartridge from the 1960's used a bullet of 172 grains (which could vary slightly in weight), an FA-961 or FA-1023 lead sulfate primer, and 50 grains of IMR4895 single base, tubular powder. Accuracy specificiations called for a mean radious maximum average of 3.50 inches at 600 yards. This cartridge is loaded specifically for the US M1 National Match rifle and is intended to provide maxium potential when used in that weapon.
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian0 -
Thank you, Gentlemen! Rapid response and questions answered....Interesting statistics on the National Match ammo.
Any reason NOT to use this National Match ammo in a regular M-1 Garand?
Henry Ford stated: "There is no one more useless than a Convict, except perhaps, those that guard them. This was his reason NOT to hire either one of them!0 -
The M1 service rifle was designed around the M2 .30 caliber service cartridge which uses a 150 grain bullet. The M1 will handle the heavier NM bullets...but why? This is like pumping premium gasoline (at premium prices) into an automobile designed to use unleaded regular...you get no additional benefits, you just spend more money to operate it.
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian0 -
i was under the impression that the M1 service rifle was designed around the surplus 30-06 round that the 1903a1 used and the only reason they went with the 150 grain bullet is because thats all they had in training inventory when the war broke out? some of the old shooters on the navy team made comment that the whole world war was fought with (1903-150gr) training rounds.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
Garands original post WWI design was based on the older M1 service round from WWI with its 175 grain bullet. When the War Department began its search and testing for our new semi automatic service rifle in earnest, the .276 caliber was chosen and Garand dropped the M1 caliber and then switched to .276 with his design. After it was decided to retain the M1 service round in 1936 Garand then reverted back to .30-06 and the first production M1 from 1938 used this round exclusively. When the M2 ball round was adopted in 1940 a few minor changes were needed to optomise the rifle to that cartridge, which occured at the same time the old Gas Trap operating sytem was abandoned and the newly designed gas port rifles entered service, which had 24 inch barrels rather than the early 22 inch barrels from 1938 to 1940. You are right on this one bobski...but no $100 gift to beach's kids this time! [;)]
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian0 -
im still waiting for a bag of oranges from you![:D] 0 -
While I am loathe to even consider contradicting Mark on anything bearing on the subject of the best service rifle the US ever fielded, I must disagree with his support of bobski's analysis. According to the ammunition reference materials I have, the 150gr was a deliberate choice, chosen after extensive testing because it had significantly better accuracy, reduced recoil, less muzzle flash and conserved resources (in order of importance). This loading was adopted based on the enthusiastic endorsement by the Infantry Board. The last M1 ammo was a special run for the USN which was not ready for the change to the M2. This ammo, headstamped FA 41, has a silver tip - not as far down as the API identification used later in the war.
JRB - virtually every country in Western Europe loaded '06 at some point during the period before the 7.62x51 was adopted as the NATO standard. It was, actually, the de facto NATO round for many years. It was also loaded by several Asian nations and a few others (for use as a military cartridge, not commercial use, which expands it even further). Domestically, there were easily thirty producers, some of them very obscure, when one counts the wartime production of the two World Wars.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
Thanks again, guys! Looks like I opened up a little bit of something that led to some real interesting info..... Sure enough! Historical facts can clear up the "dark" spots in history.....
Henry Ford stated: "There is no one more useless than a Convict, except perhaps, those that guard them. This was his reason NOT to hire either one of them!0 -
jprice846
Not an Expert on much other than the "Law West of the Pecos," but try me and we'll both see how dumb I might be..........
Henry Ford stated: "There is no one more useless than a Convict, except perhaps, those that guard them. This was his reason NOT to hire either one of them!0 -
Judge, captkirk's policy is to lock a thread after 10 or more posts. jp began a thread on the "Wanteds" forum seeking the Sauer and asked for help in contacting you; you can pick it up there if you need to.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
I don't really want to pick an argument but some of the info here is just a little off. First of the .276 pedersen cartridge was adopted by the selection board as the new service round. The Garand was also adopted by the same round but in the .276 which it was developed around. I could go thru the complete history but I won't. The reason that the M1 could not be started into production in 1932 was that General McArthur was the Chief of Staff at the time and unilaterally disapproved the .276 and the Garand in 1932 insisting that the Garand be re-designed to use the 30/06, which took until January 1936 to do. That is the reason that the U.S. entered WWII with only about 40,000 Garands. The original M1 Garand would have been in .276 with a 10 round magazine instead of 8 and would have been about 1 /12 lb lighter than the later 30/06 version. The .276(a 7mm) would have used a 125 grain bullet at 2550 fps. There is what I consider one of the best articles ever written on the M1 history in the Oct 2002 issue of GUNS Magazine. 0
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