Enfield jungle carbine, original, worth?
I bought an Enfield jungle carbine in about 1962. Shot it a few times, bruised my shoulder, have two magazines, one long, one short and about 50 rounds of ammo purchased at the same time, british so far as I know.
It has been sitting in my closet for 40+ years, still have it around. It is apparently a Mk 5. On the barrel, above the lower hand rest stock, in the cut out of the upper cover, are what looks to be some weird mark, followed by 303"2.22"18.5 TONS. On the left side of the front sight is M/470. On the receiver, on the left outside, are the markings No5MK1ROF (F) and underneath those is 2/45 H1592.
The stock is dark, never reconditioned, with some residual green paint on the very butt end of the stock. The right side of the stock has "BLR" stenciled in white paint, letters about 1.5 inches high. Underneath the hand grip of the stock is stamped an "H", then a crown followed by F1 in line with the stock. Then slightly closer to the trigger guard is another crown with FZ underneath it, set across the stock.
At the tip of the hand guard portion of the stock is embossed the number 1592. Residual green paint can be seen on the trigger guard and even on the receiver housing.
The rifle is in good shape, other than some dings, dints in the stock and one penetrating hole in the hand grip, about the size of one-fourth of a dime...honestly looks like a sharpnel mark. I just checked the barrel, the inside looks good to me, a non-expert, very strong rifling. No or minimal rust, no pitting on outside. Interesting is the residual green paint on the metal. Looks like this was deliberate, perhaps a modification for SE asia or something. I will post a picture when I can get a digital camera.
I've been thinking of trading it for a Garand M1 or something, but don't know what it is worth. Can anyone help me?
It has been sitting in my closet for 40+ years, still have it around. It is apparently a Mk 5. On the barrel, above the lower hand rest stock, in the cut out of the upper cover, are what looks to be some weird mark, followed by 303"2.22"18.5 TONS. On the left side of the front sight is M/470. On the receiver, on the left outside, are the markings No5MK1ROF (F) and underneath those is 2/45 H1592.
The stock is dark, never reconditioned, with some residual green paint on the very butt end of the stock. The right side of the stock has "BLR" stenciled in white paint, letters about 1.5 inches high. Underneath the hand grip of the stock is stamped an "H", then a crown followed by F1 in line with the stock. Then slightly closer to the trigger guard is another crown with FZ underneath it, set across the stock.
At the tip of the hand guard portion of the stock is embossed the number 1592. Residual green paint can be seen on the trigger guard and even on the receiver housing.
The rifle is in good shape, other than some dings, dints in the stock and one penetrating hole in the hand grip, about the size of one-fourth of a dime...honestly looks like a sharpnel mark. I just checked the barrel, the inside looks good to me, a non-expert, very strong rifling. No or minimal rust, no pitting on outside. Interesting is the residual green paint on the metal. Looks like this was deliberate, perhaps a modification for SE asia or something. I will post a picture when I can get a digital camera.
I've been thinking of trading it for a Garand M1 or something, but don't know what it is worth. Can anyone help me?
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Well the good news, is that it's worth something, however it's unlikely to get you a garand. I would estimate it's probbaly worth about $225 max. Got any pics of it? 
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I could be wrong, but the number 5 Jungle Carbines that were for sale in the recent past through SOG et al are simply remarked and modified #4's, although I doubt you would be able to find that still on the reciever( or wrist furniture mount). Some, perhaps most of the #5's were made to the #5 specs AFTER WWII. If you have one of the 1944/45 produced originals, it should be worth a few hundred dollars more than the recent imports. Probably STILL won't get you a Garand, but it will be fairly close to a wash at least.
The majority of the marks you mention are not present on the newer guns for the reasons previously mentioned. The No5...marking indicated it is a model 5 jungle carbine, the 2/45 H1... is the serial number and production date ( Feb. 1945) and the line of script you mention that has "tons" in it is a pressure proof test description.
As you mentioned, the green Ocre paint on there WAS done as a modification/camo scheme for the S/E Asia theatre during WWII. I think your gun was sent to the ANzacs after the war as the English found several non-deliterious design flaws in the gun and then dumped them on the colonies/former colonies. The fact that you have the green paint on there is really interesting and rare, but almost impossible to prove original, so while it adds collector interest, it doesn't add TOO much in the way of value. If you chech various military weapons descriptions books (something general like Janes is a good source of this kinda' stuff) you will find the Australians used green Ocre paint schemes on their guns like the Owen and austin submachineguns. Sounds like you have a winner there. If I were you, I would hang on to the little gem you have and try to scare up the $600 from another source to get a decent Garand. Unless you are planning on going for some odd/rare variant of the Garand (in which case you will be spending alot more than $600 too!) you will be trading a gun away that exists in its few hundreds for a type of gun (OK, relax guys, I'm speaking of generalities here!) tha still exists in it's hundreds of thousands. This is my opinion and I'm sure others will dissagree, but I stand by my opinion as I have seen very few of these verifiable #5's over the years.
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Good info Bill...
In the time frame of 1962, there were several shipments of original No. 5's. I bought many here in So Kal[banging my head on the wall for not keeping at least one!!!]It would have to be a relly nice M-1 before I would trade off an authenic Jungle carbine. At least I still have the original new bayonet and sheath..
Just as an interesting side-note , I purchased 6 unissed carbines at one time. These were in a storage facility in Santa Ana Kali...right out of the factory wooden case...for $35 dollars each with new bayonet. Couldn't buy them all since I was only about 16 and my Dad thought I was silly and wouldn't loan me any money. [8D]
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob0 -
I sold an "origional" No. 5 Jungle carbine a couple of months ago for a buy it now price of $250. If it is an "origional No.5 it will have some flutes cut in the base of the barrel under the handguard. Also from the front of the rec. to the barrel band will measure 8 inches, the conversions measured 10.
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Tear the tree out of the ground by the roots and burn it. Burn it to ash and grind out the embers with your boot until there's nothing left. Not a single spark. Not a single seed.0 -
Hi Jacknola,
The "F" designates the reciever was made at the Fazakerly Arsenal in England. This and the BSA Arsenal in Shirley, England are the only two arsenals where the No. 5 was manufactured. 1592 means the reciever and stock are matching pieces from the original rifle. Therefore, based on these markings, your rifle is an original No. 5. Total production was BSA 81,329 rifles and Fazakerly 169,807 rifles.
All the No. 5 rifle recievers and barrels were derived from No. 4's. Manufacturing started with the No. 4 barrel and reciever being subjected to "lightening cuts" which were used to reduce the weight of the rifle and cut the barrel length down. The lightening cuts are visable around the throat area of the barrel underneath the upper wood stock. The reciever is also lightening cut around the chamber and bolt area as well. The No. 4 magazine was freely interchangeable with the No. 5.
The Gibbs Rifle Company converted an Enfield 2A (.308 caliber) into a decent clone of the No. 5, but these are not original No. 5s.
All metal part were either blued (on early production rifles) or oil blackened to a glossy black finish called "Suncorite". The green paint is a modification someone has performed along the way but not a part of the original design. The other markings you mention like the "BLR" would be an inventory or unit designation once it was issued. Below are some photos of an original No. 5, blued, BSA, 1945 rifle.
These rifles were primarily deployed is SE Asia including Malaya and including India and Pakistan.
My estimate of value is between $200.00 to $250.00 based on the condition of the rifle that you described.
I own two of these fine rifles and I love to look at them and to shoot them.
Regards,
Heavyiron[8D]
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
Thanks for all the information, though a "value" spread of $200 to $400-500 is a little wide for me to figure out what to ask for trade at a local gun show that is upcoming. Perhaps I will just look for a Gerand and hold this until I can get some definitive idea of value. I am not a collector, just like guns.
Wish you all could see what my special forces camp in Vietnam (1968) had in its armory. Just about every WWII and previous weapon produced including Thompsons, grease guns, BARs, every french weapon you can imagine, and lots of garands and more especially about 600 M-1 carbines...that is what the Montagnards carried, and so did I, for most of my hitch because I didn't want a different sound if I had to shoot.
I think I paid the grand total of eight dollars ($8.00!) for this Enfield jungle carbine in a Army surplus store in New York City, believe it or not..bought this because it looked cool. The actual date of purchase was in June, 1964, not '62,...this southern boy was summer working at the World's Fair.
The distance from receiver to barrel band is 8", I have not disasembled it to look for notches, but as the gun was bought in the early sixties, and has not been touched, I assume they are there. Now that I look at it closely, this OD-green is residual in several places. The rifle is exactly as bought, with exactly the dings in the stock that were present then, and indicate it was used in some environment that would ding the wood up some. When I bought it, I assumed it had been used in Malaya, which would probably be a good guess. It has been infrequently cleaned and hasn't been fired in 40 years. But...when I shot the thing years ago, good lord what a kick.
I will try to post a bunch of pictues tomorrow. Friend has a digital camera. I'll get closeups of the markings, various key pieces of the rifle. I'll have to figure out how to post pictures.0 -
I just traded a No.5 Jungle Carbine for a Leupold Vari X-III. It was given to me by my father-in-law as a gift. When I received it, it had been in a plastic bag in his basement for approx. 25 yrs. I got it home and removed all cosmoline from it. The rifle, bolt, and mag all retained the same serial number. It was a No.5 of ROF manufacture in Northern Ireland. I don't care much for anything military so I was happy with the trade. It also wore an original Parker-Hale receiver peep sight. It went to a buddy, though, so I know it is in good hands.
Men, like bullets, go farthest when they are smoothest.0 -
You can try the following link also:
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=44
This is an Enfield Gun Board. I am sure they will want photos as well. Many Q/As about No. 5s.
Regards,
Heavyiron[8D]
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
If you have a true British made #5 Jungle bayonet and scabbard (not the singapore one -ISP?) it will go for up to $110.00 in some cases.
These bayonets and scabbards are hard to find. I had one and sold it for $130 but that was a couple years ago.
Good luck, Franko0 -
How do I post a picture? FAQ doesn't address that issue, and I cannot copy and past. I click the "add a picture" icon above and get a 0 -
jacknola,
Go to "Search" anb type in "posting photos" or "posting images".
You will also need the use of an "image host" like the below link where you keep your photos.
www.photobucket.com
There will be a plethora of advice.
Regards,
Heavyiron[8D]
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
hope this post picture works. thanks for the advice.
[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/Jacknola/junglecarbinecomposite.jpg]0 -
jacknola,
Nice photos.
Now that I can see the rifle, and the letters described earlier the BLR is a problem. It means this rifle is beyond repair. This designation would indicate there is some critical defect with the rifle. These letters were used when the location to which the rifle was deployed could not repair or fix the rifle.
I would have a gunsmith give this rifle a good lookover before shooting it or selling it to someone who might shoot it to make sure it is safe.
Not considering the BLR, this rifle would be worth $200 to $250.00 dollars in its current condition, but probably less than $250.00. Unfortunately, with the BLR it is a parts gun. Sorry for the bad news, but these rifles do have an interesting history.
It would be interesting to see where this rifle has traveled and what stories it would have to tell from the last 57 years.
Regards,
Heavyiron[8D]
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
P.S.
Here is what one in excellent condition looks like (one on the top).
I wish this was one of my rifles.
Regards,
Heavyiron[8D]
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
That is what is good about the internet. I probably fired 50 rounds through it years ago without incident, not having a clue what the BLR meant (I thought it meant "British Light Rifle" or somesuch).
But my teenage son has been asking to shoot the rifle, and for some reason I have been reluctant to let him, though he is quite experienced. Now I will have the little piece looked at, if I can find an experienced enfield specialist in New Orleans...but I will leave the BLR on the rifle as a warning to future owners and for historical value. It IS a cool looking little weapon and I like the residual paint. Does indeed make one wonder where it was before before it found me.0
![http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/Jacknola/junglecarbinecomposite.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/Jacknola/junglecarbinecomposite.jpg]){kind=link}
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