25 WSSM as first rifle
Hello
Got my first Pronghorn this year and I used my Unlces rifle. Had a good experience and want my own rifle. He suggested the new 25 WSSM for the kind of small to med game I would most likely shoot.
Went to local gun shop here and they guy was against this rifle. Said a 243 or 25-06 and not the WSM or WSSM line of cartride's. Kind of turned me off as I read some much hipe on this new cartridge.
So what's the skinny? Is this just a fad? or is this cartridge going to be around for a while.
I'm looking at the Winchester Model 70 Super Shadow 25 WSSM w/ CRPF.
Also any pro's con's to the CRF vs CRPF in the
Model 70.
Thanks
Todd
Got my first Pronghorn this year and I used my Unlces rifle. Had a good experience and want my own rifle. He suggested the new 25 WSSM for the kind of small to med game I would most likely shoot.
Went to local gun shop here and they guy was against this rifle. Said a 243 or 25-06 and not the WSM or WSSM line of cartride's. Kind of turned me off as I read some much hipe on this new cartridge.
So what's the skinny? Is this just a fad? or is this cartridge going to be around for a while.
I'm looking at the Winchester Model 70 Super Shadow 25 WSSM w/ CRPF.
Also any pro's con's to the CRF vs CRPF in the
Model 70.
Thanks
Todd
0
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Hi tgorman,
The real advantage of the WSSM cartridges are efficiency. Because of their fat powder column they can achieve ballistics equal to the parent cartridge with less powder in a smaller case. If you look at the ballistics for the .25-06 and the .25 WSSM, they are identical!
There may also be an advantage in having a shorter action, i.e., shorter bolt throw, but, that would not make much difference to most people. A smaller reciever might also translate into a slightly lighter rifle. The WSSMs are no more accurate and no faster (maybe 100fps faster)than the parent cartridge.
Therefore, if you have a perfectly good 7mm, 270, or .25-06 it would make absolutely no sense to trade it for one of the WSSMs. However, if you do not possess a hunting rifle you might want to start with one of these. However, disregarding the hype, the advantages are a smaller powder charge and shorter action.
Regards,
Heavyiron[8D]
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
never shot the 25wssm, but my 7mm wsm has so much muzzle blast and recoil that i cant even stand to shoot it. I have two 25-06's, the recoil is mild, not bad muzzle blast eather. I would stay with a proven cartdrige, maybe a .260rem if you want a short action or a
25-06 if you want a long action0 -
25-06, is there anything else? [:D][:D][:D]
NRA Life Endowment Member0 -
There is a pretty good article on the 25WSSM in the October 2004 issue of Rifle's HANDLOADER Magazine ( handloadermagazine.com ). -- I personally don't think you could tell the difference in the field on game between any of the .257 calibers ( within reasonable ranges ) and would shop around, find the gun that fit me the best and that I could get the the best deal on and go from there. -- Good Luck...........[8D] 0 -
heres another factor to consider...
the average lifespan of a .30-06, .270, 6.5X55, .223, etc... (in terms of useable accuracy, and safe performance) is at least 2500 rounds, sometimes double that figure depending on the gun.
the average lifespan of these new short and super short hot magnum is well under 1000 rounds. i am getting industyry feedback that places the number closer to 750 rounds for some of the smaller bore sizes.
throat erosion, and chamber life are drasticly reduced when you compare this family of newer, super short / hot magnum cartridges to the other most comman, old standard rounds.
for most of us, the differance in performance will go un-noticed.
for most of us junking or rebarreling a rifle after 750 rounds in not a viable economic option.
for most of us a rifle chambered in a caliber that the ammo can be purchased in almost every gunshop in north america readily and at a decent cost is an important factor.
i personaly would choose a rifle chambered in an older, well researched, long lasting chambering.
some of us want the latest toy, and have money to burn.
others do not.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.0 -
MRMIKE.............Where did you get the info on the premature wear on the WSM/WSSM family of rounds. My understanding was that they get slightly more pressure and muzzle velocity out of a smaller powder charge because of the shape/angle of the cases. The key word being slightly. What causes the extra wear if "slightly" still means what I think it means. I have a M70 in .270WSM and I am NOW very interested in this thread!!!!!!!!!
PHIL0 -
my info comes second hand from a secret scource who works for WINCHESTER...
he relates that in the 750-1000 round usage range accuracy has been seen to degrade by 20-25%...
i asked if this was a WINCHESTER problem (ie, the guns) or an ammo problem...
he expressed a belief that i expressed / related earlier in this thread.
i will call him monday and ask for a clarification of the issue you have raised.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.0 -
I don't think the WSSM family of cartridges get the respect they deserve. In fact, the criticism you you hear always comes from people who have never tried one.
While I haven't tried the 25 WSSM, I have a Winchester M70 Coyote in .243 WSSM. I have done some work to the rifle, but with factory 55 grain Ballistic Silvertips (at 4000+ fps), it will consistenty shoot three shot groups at 200 yards around +/- 3/4". I'm just getting set-up now to hand load for it, and I expect to improve on that performance.
If you're looking for a light, compact, handy, and probably very accurate rifle, I think it would be well woth your consideration!0 -
Thanks, mr mike! I'd hate to have spent all that money on my toy and then find out it's not as good as someone else's toy. I like my WSM, but if there is a longevity problem I'd like to get rid of it now and get a regular .270 or go back to my 30-30.
You can never have too many guns.
PHIL.0 -
Todd,
Just ignore the naysayers and downplayers. They haven't even shot one of these rifles yet so they have no first hand experience, just ill-founded opinions bases on internet rumors and bad information.
No matter what information comes from the "2nd hand source" at source at Winchester, it is of no importance nor can you put any weight to it since the source won't identify themselves. It's just like the so called informed sources that the media uses that won't be identified. It's a waste of time and space because they have no credibility. They're just looking for a way to seem to be important. It's all rumor and unsubstantiated babble. The guy wants to keep his job but he wants to back stab the company that signs his check.
Yes, the ballistics of the 25 WSSM is similar to other cartridges but the same thing can be said for literally dozens of other successful cartridges. No, you can't get loaded ammunition in every hardware store in America. But, when I plan to shoot a particular cartridge in a hunt or competition, I make sure that my ammo is shipped ahead of time to arrive before I need it and I make arrangements to carry some with me also. I have never been in situation without ammunition.
I have three 25 WSSM's that I am testing currently and they all have over 1000 rounds through them and the accuracy and throats are near perfect. I use a borescope to check continuously. These barrels will be shot until they loose substantial accuracy attributable to erosion. Remember that barrels can be set back to renew the throat and leade. We do this a lot with our varmint rifles. Rarely do hunting rifles require a setback since they don't get shot enough to achieve a high round count.
I have shot the version that Wal-Mart sells from Winchester and it is a very good rifle right out of the box. Just be sure to get good glass to put on the top. These cartridges are going to be around for a long time. We just have to give the market a chance to catch up with the development. After all, the 30-06 wasn't available in every little store in America and the world right away, either!
Here is a previous thread about the WSSM's:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=115097
Here is a forum dedicated to the Short Mags:
http://www.shortmags.org/shortmags/
Product information from Winchester:
http://www.winchester.com/marketing/newitems/whatsnewcontent.aspx?productid=17
Best of luck and post again if you need more information. Do some more reading before blowing off a good cartridge.0 -
I own both - the 25-06 is user friendly, easy to reload for and very accurrate, holds four in the box. I do a lot of long range shooting here in Arizona for Coues Deer. Long hikes are the norm. The -06 has a big scope and heavy barrel and I use it off bags from the hood of my 4x4. the -06 cases pop in the box nice and easy. All reloads tried are up to speed and very accurate. So I bought a Browning Medallion last year in WSSM. Only 6 3/4 lbs with a scope. Beautiful gun and one inch at 100 yds with WW Supreme and CT bullets. Handloads are just as accurate but cannot duplicate factory velocity within 150 fps and I have reloaded for dozens of cals for 30 years. Those short fat things are hard to get into the box and it only holds 3. They are a little awkward at the reloading bench too. There is lots of data for the WSSM if you search for it. I love both guns. The Browning is a pure pleasure to walk around with but the 112BVSS 25-06 will out shoot it with reloads. 0 -
quote:
Also any pro's con's to the CRF vs CRPF in the
Model 70.
Thanks
Todd
I would buy the CRF before the CRPF, the CRF is the famous pre '64 style action, CRF is the better action and will hold its value better. You won't regret spending a few more $$$ for a CRF in any caliber. Also I dont think the 25wssm will have the throat erosion problems the 243wssm had.0 -
1. i have personaly fired 3 of the rounds in question, 1 box of each at 250 yds from a bagged benchrest.
2. we stock all of the WSM and WSSM cartridges here at the shop, and had them on the shelf before the rifles were being distributed.
3. we have the die sets, new unfired cases, and other componants for all these rounds and load them upon request, tailored to the customers needs.
4. i personaly own several super hot wildcats including the .270 GIBBS, .280 ROSS, and the 5.7MM SPITFIRE. we have to handload these rounds, and have devoted extensive time and research developing load data.
5. in the next edition of CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD our GIBBS MAUSER CUSTOM RIFLE in .270 GIBBS will be pictured above the load data we have provided. KEN RAMAGE was very happy to recieve this info, and we will be listed as contributers in the book.
6. we also worked very closely with LARRY BARNETT at SUPERIOR AMMUNITION and MIKE from GRAYBACK WILDCATS to test this data, and provide it to those who are interested. if you call LARRY and ask for load data or loaded cartridges for the .270 GIBBS you will benefit directly from my work, research, and knowledge.
7. i made the same objections when REMINGTON ETRONICS ammo and rifles came on the market, ang look what happened. i knew that these products were on the way out from similar INSIDER SCOURCES. of course we still stock the ETRONIX ammo in case quantity, as well as the wafer batteries needed for electronic primer ignition.
8. another of my INSIDER INDUSTRY CONTACTS let me know that SCHRADE was closing there doors well before the public was aware of it.
9. i have fired a more diverse selection of ammo from a more diverse selection of guns than you have. i probably own more guns than you, and certainly handle and test fire more guns than you are aware exist.
10. with out die collection, and the shops 30 year history we see, load, test, and have data on more ammo than you can fathom.
you own these guns, and are a ardent fan of these cartridges. you have your own opinions on there performance and usefulness. i fully respect you right to have and vocolize those views, but i also reserve the right to disagree with you.
maybe most folks would have less experiance and knowledge than you in this dept. but i am not one of them, and i just do not agree with your opinion. i will listen to my INSIDER INDUSTRY SCOURCES as they are usualy right, and usualy provide me with tips well in advance of the general public.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.0
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