antique winchester 1894 tech questions
Hi-
I have a few specific questions, hope someone can help as I've exhausted my resources!
I have an 1894 manufactured in 1896 that letters correctly. It has a rapid taper octagon lightweight 26" barrel chambered for 38-55 and is plumb full of special order features.
Questions are:
1. Does anybody have the production numbers and years for 26" extra light barrels and or know anything about the scarcity for the 26" as opposed to the 24" and 22"?
2. My barrel has the front sight dovetailed into the barrel. Later models have the sight soldered on due to safety concerns because of the thickness of lightweight barrels...Any ideas when this change took place and or how many lightweight barrels were made before the change?
3. I recently took the gun to the Winchester Collectors Assoc at the big Reno, NV gun show. They seemed to think that this is the only example known of a 26" rapid taper full octagon barrel with a 1/2 magazine. Anybody seen others?
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Mike
I have a few specific questions, hope someone can help as I've exhausted my resources!
I have an 1894 manufactured in 1896 that letters correctly. It has a rapid taper octagon lightweight 26" barrel chambered for 38-55 and is plumb full of special order features.
Questions are:
1. Does anybody have the production numbers and years for 26" extra light barrels and or know anything about the scarcity for the 26" as opposed to the 24" and 22"?
2. My barrel has the front sight dovetailed into the barrel. Later models have the sight soldered on due to safety concerns because of the thickness of lightweight barrels...Any ideas when this change took place and or how many lightweight barrels were made before the change?
3. I recently took the gun to the Winchester Collectors Assoc at the big Reno, NV gun show. They seemed to think that this is the only example known of a 26" rapid taper full octagon barrel with a 1/2 magazine. Anybody seen others?
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Mike
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try this link you may have to call or send pictures .... http://www.winchestercollector.org/
Dave0 -
Hello Mike,
I did not make it to the last Big Reno show, but it is one of my regular shows.
To answer your questions, "all" of the original Model 1894 Sporting Rifles were made with a standard 26-inch barrel. The 24-inch barrel did not become standard until the late 1920s (just before Winchester discontinued the Sporting Rifle). Winchester made optional (special order) lengths ranging from 18-inches, all the way up to 36-inches), but 26-inches was the standard lenght.
There is no published information for the precise number of them that were made with a rapid taper octagon barrel, but I have seen several of them in the past 30 years, and all of them had the special order button magazine.
As for the front sight, ALL of the Sporting Rifles had a dovetailed front sight. The Saddle Ring Carbines (SRCs) and later made Sporting Carbines (which all had 20-inch round barrels), were all made with a soldered on front sight post/ramp, and it had NOTHING to do with saftey concerns due to barrel diameter.
I have no idea who you spoke to at the Reno show, but whoever it was, they were pumping you full of horse manure. You definitely do NOT have a one-of-a-kind Model 1894. For what it is worth, the current president of the Winchester Collectors Association is a personal friend of mine, and I am also a long time member of the Cody Firearms Museum (where all of the original surviving Winchester records reside).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Thanks for the info.
A few problems I'm having with your response:
I'm aware that 26" barrels were standard, however few were ordered and even fewer were lightweight models - I'm looking for information on numbers that were actually produced.
The dovetailed sight info was taken directly out of the Winchester book by Maddis and sights safety concerns. I just want to know how many of the lightweight barrels were produced before the change. You may want to check your info on this one.
As for who I spoke to at the show, I'd say about 9 of your colleagues for several hours, heck I even had dinner with them, who only knew of 4 examples, all had the same barrel length but none had ever seen a half magazine. Can you show me one in text or put me in touch with someone who has one?
Not "one of a kind" no problem - I don't care. I'm just looking for someone who really knows what they are talking about.
I've been to the cody museum several times and have also spoken with Waddy who lettered this gun.
Can you put me in touch with someone who really knows specifics about the 1894?0 -
quote:Originally posted by riddlingrook
Thanks for the info.
A few problems I'm having with your response:
I'm aware that 26" barrels were standard, however few were ordered and even fewer were lightweight models - I'm looking for information on numbers that were actually produced. Now that I know where you got your written information from, I know what the problem is... Old George's written material on the Model 1894 is FRAUGHT with errors[:(]... BTW, his name is correctly spelled "Madis"[:0]. Continuing on, several HUNDRED THOUSAND Model 1894s were manufactured with a 26-inch barrel. Most were standard octagon contour, but many were also made in full round contour, and a fair number were made in 1/2 octagon 1/2 round contour. A small % were made with the rapid taper octagon contour (often referred to as an "Extra Light Weight" rifle), and all of those were made with button magazines (due to the rapid taper of the barrel it was mechanically impossible to attach a full length magazine with the standard dovetailed retaining ring). As you should be aware, the original factory records at the Cody Firearms Museum end at serial number 353,999, and the "Rifle" variation was made up through about serial number 1,100,000 (1936). That leaves a large number of potential "Rifles" that can not be researched. The "Extra Light Weight" Model 1894 is listed as having been manufactured from 1897 - 1918. Model 94 "Rifles" made after about 1929 are most often found with a 24-inch barrel.
The dovetailed sight info was taken directly out of the Winchester book by Maddis and sights safety concerns. Another one of George Madis' incorrect suppositions[:(].
I just want to know how many of the lightweight barrels were produced before the change Not possible... see my answer above.
You may want to check your info on this one. No need... I believe that I know the subject quite well[;)].
As for who I spoke to at the show, I'd say about 9 of your colleagues for several hours, heck I even had dinner with them, who only knew of 4 examples, all had the same barrel length but none had ever seen a half magazine. Please fill me in on the names of those fellows... I would be willing to bet I know most of them personally.
Can you show me one in text or put me in touch with someone who has one? Not "one of a kind" no problem - I don't care. I'm just looking for someone who really knows what they are talking about. OK, I am just chopped liver[V].
I've been to the cody museum several times and have also spoken with Waddy who lettered this gun. Can you put me in touch with someone who really knows specifics about the 1894? You might first try picking up a copy of "THE WINCHESTER MODEL 94 THE FIRST 100 YEARS" by author Robert C. Renneberg, ISBN: 0873411617, or "Winchester, 1894: A Ninety Year History of the Variations of the Winchester Carbine from 1894-1984" by author Gary Twesten, ISBN: 096024283X, or "Winchester's 30-30: Model 94, the Rifle America Loves" by author Sam Fadala, ISBN: 0811719057, or "Winchester 94 - America's Rifle" by author Sam Fadala, ISBN: 1879356295.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
I already have ALL the books you listed and have read them thoroughly again and again along with at least 50 others.
David P. Bichrest has been in touch and states that the 26" lightweight Octagon is very rare in the 38-55 caliber.
It seems the experts in the field know everything except what I am looking for and they all seem to contradict each other.
Thanks for your time Bert........0 -
quote:Originally posted by riddlingrook
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
I already have ALL the books you listed and have read them thoroughly again and again along with at least 50 others.
David P. Bichrest has been in touch and states that the 26" lightweight Octagon is very rare in the 38-55 caliber.
It seems the experts in the field know everything except what I am looking for and they all seem to contradict each other.
Thanks for your time Bert........
Hello Mike...
First, you are quite welcome.
Second, due to the simple fact that very little published information exists about the specific variation of Model 1894 that you are trying to research, you are limited to gleaning information from other Winchester collectors. The next time you go to the Big Reno show, look up Tom Burness, Walt Hallstein, Greg Martin, or John Gangel (if he is at the show)... all of those fellows have seen more of the rarer Model 1894s than I have (and like I mentioned earlier, I have personally seen & handled at least four or five of them in the same configuration as your Rifle... most of which were in Little John's shop).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0
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