"McGivern" Colt - Part 2 w/ New Pix
All,
Dave has sent me a new batch of pictures, some of which detail his factory letter. Also, I have included Daves last post just before the pictures.
Specific to the factory letter ... it pertains to the original revolver and not to the customizing. However, the letter does show that the revolver went to San Francisco, and this may be a help in pinning down who did the work.
In emails that we have exchanged Dave related that he acquired the revolver from a Calif. Highway Patrolman in a trade for a rifle when he was a Deputy in San Diego. The CHP mentioned Ed McGivern and Milo Ploof or Ploff names, but that individual is deceased so we can't ask further questions to try and clarify the relationship(s) to the revolver.
Dean W. King was a highly skilled gunsmith that started out in Colorado and relocated to San Francisco. I've never been able to locate much in the way of information on Mr. King, or his business, which ceased shortly after his death in the early 1950's.
Mr. King's shop turned out quite a bit of custom work, and he is especially known for the many different gun sights that he manufactured, but he also done top notch customization and premium level action tuning. Working mostly with Colt's. Probably his slickest invention (in my opinion) is his mirror sight. A highly polished metal disk was imbedded so that it reflected light on the front post. So far I've never been lucky enough to be able to purchase one of Mr. King's revolvers, but I have had the honor of firing two of them, both with the mirror sight, and they were an absolute wonder to use. That sight picture was really something and the action short and smooth as warm butter.
The present day King Gun Works has no relationship to Dean King.
Now to the revolver we are working with.
The front sight is either a King or a copy of one. Many King sights had the name stamped on them, but not all of them, so the absence of the King marking does not rule it out. However, King had an adjustable sight of his own, and it is clear that the sight on this revolver is a Smith & Wesson "Micro" sight which came out in 1940. Yet Mr. King was also known for performing bascially any type of work that the customer was willing to pay for, so again, it is possible that the Smith sight could have been installed by his shop.
As for the hammer work it looks very much like some of the hammer treatments produced by King, but unfortunately it is a "centered" treatment rather than his signature "off-center" treatment that was set up (shifted from center) to favor either a right or left handed shooter, which would be a dead giveaway.
The grip work is another matter. It's said that Mr. King was a "Masters Master" machinest and I don't think he would have let work of that finish level leave his shop. It is not horrible work, and it certainly has held up to the test of time, but it is a little "rough", and I think this is the part that points to the work not being done by Mr. King or in his shop. But, there is a strong possibility that the work was done by someone that once worked for Mr. King. Perhaps by one of the workers that was employed by Mr. King at the time of his death ... could this be Milo Ploof/Ploff???
From my reading on Mr. McGivern I never got the impression that he did any gunsmithing. Obviously he was well versed in the workings of revolvers, and he certainly maintained the guns he used. But I think he probably had any modifications/customizations done by others to his specifications. And maybe that is the case here in that the revolver is patterned off/after one that Mr. McGivern had made.
While Elmer Keith advocated grip/frame changes similar to what is on this revolver, I can't recall Mr. McGivern doing so, but it is possible. I'm still rummaging around trying to find where I "rat holed" my copy of Mr. McGivern's book as it should be in there if he was a proponent.
Dave and I have pretty much came to the agreement that the mysterious "Milo P." is probably the key to all of this, so with a little luck someone reading this post will have some information about him. Also, while a touch off topic, anyone with information on Dean King ... please drop me an email.
Now for those of you who were with us in the previous post, as well as those new "readers" ... enjoy the pictures and help Dave out where you can.
Dave's Latest Post:
"I HAVE A CUSTOM COLT NEW SERVICE 45 LONG COLT. I HAVE THE PAPERS FROM THE COLT FACTORY ALSO.THIS HANDGUN HAS AJUSTABLE SIGHTS REAR AND A NEW SIGHT BLADE ON THE FRONT. IT HAS A CUSTOM TRIGGER AND HAMMER.AND THE ACTION HAS BEEN GONE OVER. THE GRIP FRAME IS COMPLEATLY DIFFERANT THEN THE FACTORY NEW SERVICE.I HAVE PHOTOS AVALABLE.IT HAS A RAMPENT COLT IN THE CENTER OF COLT'S NEW SERVICE ON THE SIDE PLATE.IT HAS WHAT I BELEAVE IS A PAIR OF ROSEWOOD GRIPS.TO SHOOT THIS HANDGUN WAS A REAL TREAT.
QUESTION. DOES ANY ONE KNOW ED McGIVEN (SPELLING MAY BE OFF) OR MILO PLOOF (? SPELLING)? WHEN I GOT THIS HAND GUN SOME 25 YEARS AGO WHILE I WAS A DEPUTY SHERIFF IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY CALIFORNIA. I WAS TOLD IT WAS I CUSTOM HAND MADE FIREARM DESIGNED AND SMITHED BY THESE TWO GENTELMEN. AT THAT TIME IT MADE NO DIFFERANCE TO ME I JUST NOTED THE NAMES AND WENT ON MY WAY. IN FACT I CARRYED THIS GUN ON AND OFF FOR SEVERAL YEARS. TO QUALIFY WITH IT WAS A SINCH. NOW I'M LOOKING TO MAYBE FIND IT A NEW HOME. IF IT IS WHAT I BELEAVE NOW IT IS IT NEEDS TO BE IN A COLLECTION WHERE IT'S HISTORY AND BEAUTY CAN BE APPRECEATED BY MANY. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY HELPFUL.PLEAS NOT I PAID A LOT OF MONEY AT THE TIME FOR THIS ARM. I WONT BE QUICK TO LET IT GO. DAVE ANSWER THROUGH THIS FORUM OR TO joyshoppe@earthlink.net"
"THANK YOU CONTENDER MAN FOR POSTING MY PHOTOS."
"I WENT OUT TO THE FARM AND GOT THE COLT FACTORY LETTER. IT GOES AS FOLLOWES"
"COLT NEW SERVICE REVOLVER
SERIAL NUMBER: 16XXX
CALIBER: . 45/c
BARREL LENGTH: 5 1/2'
FINISH: BLUE
TYPE OF STOCKS: NOT LISTED
SHIPPED TO: PACIFIC HARDWARE & STEEL CO.
ADDRESS: SAN FRANCISCO CA
DATE SHIPPED: JANUARY 14,1907
NUMBER OF GUNS IN SHIPPMENT: 5
WE TRUST THE INFORMATION SUPPLIED ABOVE WILL BE OF INTEREST.
SINCERELY,
M.S. HUBER
HISTOROAN."
"I DONT KNOW IF THIS INFORMATION WILL HELP I FURTHER RESEARCH INTO THE HISTORY OF THIS GUN.
I WOULD LIKE TO GATHER AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSABLE TO FIND OUT WEATHER OR NOT ED McGIVREN HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS COLT. I KNOW IT WOULD MAKE IT WORTH A SMALL FORTUNE,BUT BETTER THEN THAT IS THE ADDITION TO THE HISTORY OF MR. McGIVREN.
I AM VERY INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT ABOUT MILO PLOOF OR PLOFF I THINK HE IS THE GUN SMITH THAT DID THE WORK ONDER ED OVERSIGHT. SOI ANY HELP FROM THE VOLUMS OF INFORMATION OUT THERE CAN ONLY HELP. AND I THANK YOU.
I THINK IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE THIS ALL OPENED UP TO US THROUGH THE GUNBROKER DISCUSSION LINE.
FOR ALL THE INFORMATION YOU ALL HAVE FURNISHED SO FAR THANK YOU. DAVE"
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
Dave has sent me a new batch of pictures, some of which detail his factory letter. Also, I have included Daves last post just before the pictures.
Specific to the factory letter ... it pertains to the original revolver and not to the customizing. However, the letter does show that the revolver went to San Francisco, and this may be a help in pinning down who did the work.
In emails that we have exchanged Dave related that he acquired the revolver from a Calif. Highway Patrolman in a trade for a rifle when he was a Deputy in San Diego. The CHP mentioned Ed McGivern and Milo Ploof or Ploff names, but that individual is deceased so we can't ask further questions to try and clarify the relationship(s) to the revolver.
Dean W. King was a highly skilled gunsmith that started out in Colorado and relocated to San Francisco. I've never been able to locate much in the way of information on Mr. King, or his business, which ceased shortly after his death in the early 1950's.
Mr. King's shop turned out quite a bit of custom work, and he is especially known for the many different gun sights that he manufactured, but he also done top notch customization and premium level action tuning. Working mostly with Colt's. Probably his slickest invention (in my opinion) is his mirror sight. A highly polished metal disk was imbedded so that it reflected light on the front post. So far I've never been lucky enough to be able to purchase one of Mr. King's revolvers, but I have had the honor of firing two of them, both with the mirror sight, and they were an absolute wonder to use. That sight picture was really something and the action short and smooth as warm butter.
The present day King Gun Works has no relationship to Dean King.
Now to the revolver we are working with.
The front sight is either a King or a copy of one. Many King sights had the name stamped on them, but not all of them, so the absence of the King marking does not rule it out. However, King had an adjustable sight of his own, and it is clear that the sight on this revolver is a Smith & Wesson "Micro" sight which came out in 1940. Yet Mr. King was also known for performing bascially any type of work that the customer was willing to pay for, so again, it is possible that the Smith sight could have been installed by his shop.
As for the hammer work it looks very much like some of the hammer treatments produced by King, but unfortunately it is a "centered" treatment rather than his signature "off-center" treatment that was set up (shifted from center) to favor either a right or left handed shooter, which would be a dead giveaway.
The grip work is another matter. It's said that Mr. King was a "Masters Master" machinest and I don't think he would have let work of that finish level leave his shop. It is not horrible work, and it certainly has held up to the test of time, but it is a little "rough", and I think this is the part that points to the work not being done by Mr. King or in his shop. But, there is a strong possibility that the work was done by someone that once worked for Mr. King. Perhaps by one of the workers that was employed by Mr. King at the time of his death ... could this be Milo Ploof/Ploff???
From my reading on Mr. McGivern I never got the impression that he did any gunsmithing. Obviously he was well versed in the workings of revolvers, and he certainly maintained the guns he used. But I think he probably had any modifications/customizations done by others to his specifications. And maybe that is the case here in that the revolver is patterned off/after one that Mr. McGivern had made.
While Elmer Keith advocated grip/frame changes similar to what is on this revolver, I can't recall Mr. McGivern doing so, but it is possible. I'm still rummaging around trying to find where I "rat holed" my copy of Mr. McGivern's book as it should be in there if he was a proponent.
Dave and I have pretty much came to the agreement that the mysterious "Milo P." is probably the key to all of this, so with a little luck someone reading this post will have some information about him. Also, while a touch off topic, anyone with information on Dean King ... please drop me an email.
Now for those of you who were with us in the previous post, as well as those new "readers" ... enjoy the pictures and help Dave out where you can.
Dave's Latest Post:
"I HAVE A CUSTOM COLT NEW SERVICE 45 LONG COLT. I HAVE THE PAPERS FROM THE COLT FACTORY ALSO.THIS HANDGUN HAS AJUSTABLE SIGHTS REAR AND A NEW SIGHT BLADE ON THE FRONT. IT HAS A CUSTOM TRIGGER AND HAMMER.AND THE ACTION HAS BEEN GONE OVER. THE GRIP FRAME IS COMPLEATLY DIFFERANT THEN THE FACTORY NEW SERVICE.I HAVE PHOTOS AVALABLE.IT HAS A RAMPENT COLT IN THE CENTER OF COLT'S NEW SERVICE ON THE SIDE PLATE.IT HAS WHAT I BELEAVE IS A PAIR OF ROSEWOOD GRIPS.TO SHOOT THIS HANDGUN WAS A REAL TREAT.
QUESTION. DOES ANY ONE KNOW ED McGIVEN (SPELLING MAY BE OFF) OR MILO PLOOF (? SPELLING)? WHEN I GOT THIS HAND GUN SOME 25 YEARS AGO WHILE I WAS A DEPUTY SHERIFF IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY CALIFORNIA. I WAS TOLD IT WAS I CUSTOM HAND MADE FIREARM DESIGNED AND SMITHED BY THESE TWO GENTELMEN. AT THAT TIME IT MADE NO DIFFERANCE TO ME I JUST NOTED THE NAMES AND WENT ON MY WAY. IN FACT I CARRYED THIS GUN ON AND OFF FOR SEVERAL YEARS. TO QUALIFY WITH IT WAS A SINCH. NOW I'M LOOKING TO MAYBE FIND IT A NEW HOME. IF IT IS WHAT I BELEAVE NOW IT IS IT NEEDS TO BE IN A COLLECTION WHERE IT'S HISTORY AND BEAUTY CAN BE APPRECEATED BY MANY. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY HELPFUL.PLEAS NOT I PAID A LOT OF MONEY AT THE TIME FOR THIS ARM. I WONT BE QUICK TO LET IT GO. DAVE ANSWER THROUGH THIS FORUM OR TO joyshoppe@earthlink.net"
"THANK YOU CONTENDER MAN FOR POSTING MY PHOTOS."
"I WENT OUT TO THE FARM AND GOT THE COLT FACTORY LETTER. IT GOES AS FOLLOWES"
"COLT NEW SERVICE REVOLVER
SERIAL NUMBER: 16XXX
CALIBER: . 45/c
BARREL LENGTH: 5 1/2'
FINISH: BLUE
TYPE OF STOCKS: NOT LISTED
SHIPPED TO: PACIFIC HARDWARE & STEEL CO.
ADDRESS: SAN FRANCISCO CA
DATE SHIPPED: JANUARY 14,1907
NUMBER OF GUNS IN SHIPPMENT: 5
WE TRUST THE INFORMATION SUPPLIED ABOVE WILL BE OF INTEREST.
SINCERELY,
M.S. HUBER
HISTOROAN."
"I DONT KNOW IF THIS INFORMATION WILL HELP I FURTHER RESEARCH INTO THE HISTORY OF THIS GUN.
I WOULD LIKE TO GATHER AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSABLE TO FIND OUT WEATHER OR NOT ED McGIVREN HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS COLT. I KNOW IT WOULD MAKE IT WORTH A SMALL FORTUNE,BUT BETTER THEN THAT IS THE ADDITION TO THE HISTORY OF MR. McGIVREN.
I AM VERY INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT ABOUT MILO PLOOF OR PLOFF I THINK HE IS THE GUN SMITH THAT DID THE WORK ONDER ED OVERSIGHT. SOI ANY HELP FROM THE VOLUMS OF INFORMATION OUT THERE CAN ONLY HELP. AND I THANK YOU.
I THINK IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE THIS ALL OPENED UP TO US THROUGH THE GUNBROKER DISCUSSION LINE.
FOR ALL THE INFORMATION YOU ALL HAVE FURNISHED SO FAR THANK YOU. DAVE"
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
0
-
Thank you Ken:
For posting my photos on the sight.You did a great job.
I just hope it might jog the memories of one of the meny great firearms people on this sight.I know somewhere there is a answer pro or con to the history of this great old gun.If you had a oppertunity to fire it you would understand that someone knew what they were doing when they put this custom gun togeather.I do think Milo Ploof/Ploff is the key. I have to beleave the CHP Officer I got it from that Ed McGivren & milo Ploof were the poeple responsable for this custom job.I dident know these guys from the man in the moon. What sold me on the gun deal was the smoothness of the action.The fit in my hand. And the accurcy of the firearm.This was and is the finest weapon i've ever had in my hand.And i've fired a few in my 60 years.
If nothing else comes from this posting I hope the new shooters out there will see that great guns are still to be had. And they all don't have to go ratatat.Our heritage is full of people who realy cared about the art.ART of handgunning.I realy enjoy readig about the handgunners of our history.And hopefully of our future.
Thank you to all who partisapated in the diccussion.DAVE0 -
joel_black
New Member
USA
86 Posts
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 12:41:50 PM
That is a Smith rear sight, but it is way too late to have anything to do with McGivern. The pre-war target sights were much smaller.
Contender Man
Senior Member
USA
1857 Posts
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 2:46:07 PM
Agree on the "era" of the rear sight, but, no claim has been made about when the revolver was customized.
I'm not sure when Mr. McGivern passed away, but I know that he was still alive in the 50's and that is the correct time frame for the sight pictured.
This revolver provokes several questions:
1.) When was it produced?
2.) Did McGivern layout the specifications?
3.) What is the grip profile patterned after?
4.) If the work was done in the Colt Custom shop why weren't Colt's adjustable rear sight used?
5.) Why isn't the front sight a standard Colt target sight?
Etc
ETc.
Etc.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
v35
Advanced Member
USA
3458 Posts
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 5:15:59 PM
Colt New Service revolvers were also made in target versions; NS Target and NS Shooting Master. The rear sight was adjustable for windage only.
Neither had a ramp front sight. The rear was in a transverse slot with adjusting screw under the blade in the frame. Yours shows no evidence of either, making me think it was a gunsmith conversion of a standard New Service.
Elmer Keith wrote of cutting and altering grip frames to the SAA plowhandle style which yours is.
In the '50s or '60s he advocated mounting S&W rear sights on SAAs.
Ramp front pistol sights are a post WW2 innovation.
I also have a double rolled or double struck NS barrel in 38-40. I assumed Colt tried to obliterate their markings on barrels that didn't meet standards and were sold off.
The hammer with wide spur was not standard on any models.
These revolvers were made for huge hands. Bringing the rear frame strap forward 1/4" or so should enable a normal hand to fire it double action.
Christy's, Pachmayr, O'Meara and Snapps did custom conversions.
joel_black
New Member
USA
86 Posts
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 7:24:52 PMOriginally posted by Contender Man
Agree on the "era" of the rear sight, but, no claim has been made about when the revolver was customized.
I'm not sure when Mr. McGivern passed away, but I know that he was still alive in the 50's and that is the correct time frame for the sight pictured.
Ed would have been 76 in 1950 and since Smith had just introduced that rear target sight, I doubt it would have been available for custom work right away. He also favored a high front sight with no leading ramp at all. Most importantly, since he was employed by the factory as an advertizing ploy, he always claimed his pistols were stock factory items.
Jody Commander
Member
778 Posts
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 9:13:53 PM
I too have a Colts New Service that has been customized by the factory,(I have the paperwork including the bill,) it has a re-worked all steel Micro sight installed at the rear and a modified Kings post w/sheared bead front,the post is removable and there is a ramped insert in the box also, a single screw allows the inserts to be changed,(the Kings ramp looks very much like the ramp on the pictured revolver, excepting the two retaining pins,) The revolver I have has a 7&1/2" barrel and is in .45 Colt, it was sent to Colts in 1958 and returned in 1959, the rest of the revolver is unaltered except Colts blued the revolver before returning. It is very likely that the pictured revolver was modified at the factory, but I doubt that the frame was modified there, the hammer may have been done by Colts, it has been forged into a faux S&W target hammer from the period, and done well....the quality of the frame alteration does not appear to be the same quality as the rest of the work.
Contender Man
Senior Member
USA
1857 Posts
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 9:17:13 PM
The "micrometer sight" was introduced in 1940.
The sight preferred by Mr. McGivern was a hemispherical gold bead in a black post ... in fact that style sight is named for him.
Dave, the owner and original poster, claims to have a Colt letter validating the revolver, I have no reason to dis-believe him. Dave also was very quick to provide the photos for posting. I'm trying to help Dave gather information.
Is Dave putting us on? Always a possibility, but I think it is more of a case of his acquiring an old revolver that has had some serious alterations and came with a letter. Other than carrying and shooting it, Dave has been pretty candid about not knowing more and his desire to learn more about it.
Mr. McGivern, over the span of his demonstration/performance years, shot a number of revolvers, Colts as well as Smiths and he also gave some away. The following link shows one such Colt Officers Target that is now up for auction ...
http://www.gmartin-auctions.com/forgett/lot.asp?lot=439&Pictures=6
UPDATE - Thanks for confirming that Colt did in fact install the micrometer sights. Also that's a great observation about the hammer. I believe that King is the name I was trying to think of in connection with the front sight, and now that my memory has been jogged I believe another of their custom services was reworking hammer spurs.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
Edited by - Contender Man on 11/18/2004 9:28:38 PM
JudgeColt
Senior Member
1987 Posts
Posted - 11/19/2004 : 10:35:22 AM
If pictures of the altered New Service can be posted, so could a picture of the factory letter. Please have Dave post one. Nothing about the New Service pictured looks factory. In my opinion, Colt would not install a Smith & Wesson rear sight and would not so crudely alter the butt shape.
Jody Commander, could you post a scan of your Colt invoice and related documents for the custom work on your New Service? (Or e-mail them to me.) I have not heard of Colt doing that kind of work, and would like to see how the invoice is worded. I am also curious about the stocks on your New Service. I have seen what I believe to be New Service factory replacement wood stocks with the blue large head stock screw characteristic of the 1950s, rather than the small head nickel stock screw found on Pre-War guns. My theory is that Colt replaced the old stocks when doing work on Pre-War guns in the 1950s, using new production stocks with the blue big head screw. Is that what yours has?0 -
Hi. If you are still interested in Milo Ploof I know quite a bit about him .I was his neighbor for a number of years. He was one of the most facinating man I have ever met. Thanks Don. 0
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