McGivern Custom Colt - Pictures
Dave sent me 10 pix of the revolver, but the resolution was such that I couldn't do much in the way of enhancement other than try to improve the balance.
I agree with Dave that the rear sight is in all liklihood a S&W. The front sight is another matter ... I know I've seen 'em but I can't recall any specifics. Lastly, note the shape of the grips/frame. I'm not really a "Colt guy" Contender's and Smith's are more my forte`, but the profile don't resemble any New Service profile I've ever seen.
If Dave has a Colt letter on this revolver that pretty much nails down the legitimacy (sp?) issue. Anyway ... here are the pix, and anything anyone can add about either front or rear sights and/or the grip would be super.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
I agree with Dave that the rear sight is in all liklihood a S&W. The front sight is another matter ... I know I've seen 'em but I can't recall any specifics. Lastly, note the shape of the grips/frame. I'm not really a "Colt guy" Contender's and Smith's are more my forte`, but the profile don't resemble any New Service profile I've ever seen.
If Dave has a Colt letter on this revolver that pretty much nails down the legitimacy (sp?) issue. Anyway ... here are the pix, and anything anyone can add about either front or rear sights and/or the grip would be super.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
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That is a Smith rear sight, but it is way too late to have anything to do with McGivern. The pre-war target sights were much smaller. 0 -
Agree on the "era" of the rear sight, but, no claim has been made about when the revolver was customized.
I'm not sure when Mr. McGivern passed away, but I know that he was still alive in the 50's and that is the correct time frame for the sight pictured.
This revolver provokes several questions:
1.) When was it produced?
2.) Did McGivern layout the specifications?
3.) What is the grip profile patterned after?
4.) If the work was done in the Colt Custom shop why weren't Colt's adjustable rear sight used?
5.) Why isn't the front sight a standard Colt target sight?
Etc
ETc.
Etc.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
Colt New Service revolvers were also made in target versions; NS Target and NS Shooting Master. The rear sight was adjustable for windage only.
Neither had a ramp front sight. The rear was in a transverse slot with adjusting screw under the blade in the frame. Yours shows no evidence of either, making me think it was a gunsmith conversion of a standard New Service.
Elmer Keith wrote of cutting and altering grip frames to the SAA plowhandle style which yours is.
In the '50s or '60s he advocated mounting S&W rear sights on SAAs.
Ramp front pistol sights are a post WW2 innovation.
I also have a double rolled or double struck NS barrel in 38-40. I assumed Colt tried to obliterate their markings on barrels that didn't meet standards and were sold off.
The hammer with wide spur was not standard on any models.
These revolvers were made for huge hands. Bringing the rear frame strap forward 1/4" or so should enable a normal hand to fire it double action.
Christy's, Pachmayr, O'Meara and Snapps did custom conversions.0 -
Originally posted by Contender Man
Agree on the "era" of the rear sight, but, no claim has been made about when the revolver was customized.
I'm not sure when Mr. McGivern passed away, but I know that he was still alive in the 50's and that is the correct time frame for the sight pictured.
Ed would have been 76 in 1950 and since Smith had just introduced that rear target sight, I doubt it would have been available for custom work right away. He also favored a high front sight with no leading ramp at all. Most importantly, since he was employed by the factory as an advertizing ploy, he always claimed his pistols were stock factory items.0 -
I too have a Colts New Service that has been customized by the factory,(I have the paperwork including the bill,) it has a re-worked all steel Micro sight installed at the rear and a modified Kings post w/sheared bead front,the post is removable and there is a ramped insert in the box also, a single screw allows the inserts to be changed,(the Kings ramp looks very much like the ramp on the pictured revolver, excepting the two retaining pins,) The revolver I have has a 7&1/2" barrel and is in .45 Colt, it was sent to Colts in 1958 and returned in 1959, the rest of the revolver is unaltered except Colts blued the revolver before returning. It is very likely that the pictured revolver was modified at the factory, but I doubt that the frame was modified there, the hammer may have been done by Colts, it has been forged into a faux S&W target hammer from the period, and done well....the quality of the frame alteration does not appear to be the same quality as the rest of the work. 0 -
The "micrometer sight" was introduced in 1940.
The sight preferred by Mr. McGivern was a hemispherical gold bead in a black post ... in fact that style sight is named for him.
Dave, the owner and original poster, claims to have a Colt letter validating the revolver, I have no reason to dis-believe him. Dave also was very quick to provide the photos for posting. I'm trying to help Dave gather information.
Is Dave putting us on? Always a possibility, but I think it is more of a case of his acquiring an old revolver that has had some serious alterations and came with a letter. Other than carrying and shooting it, Dave has been pretty candid about not knowing more and his desire to learn more about it.
Mr. McGivern, over the span of his demonstration/performance years, shot a number of revolvers, Colts as well as Smiths and he also gave some away. The following link shows one such Colt Officers Target that is now up for auction ...
http://www.gmartin-auctions.com/forgett/lot.asp?lot=439&Pictures=6
UPDATE - Thanks for confirming that Colt did in fact install the micrometer sights. Also that's a great observation about the hammer. I believe that King is the name I was trying to think of in connection with the front sight, and now that my memory has been jogged I believe another of their custom services was reworking hammer spurs.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
If pictures of the altered New Service can be posted, so could a picture of the factory letter. Please have Dave post one. Nothing about the New Service pictured looks factory. In my opinion, Colt would not install a Smith & Wesson rear sight and would not so crudely alter the butt shape.
Jody Commander, could you post a scan of your Colt invoice and related documents for the custom work on your New Service? (Or e-mail them to me.) I have not heard of Colt doing that kind of work, and would like to see how the invoice is worded. I am also curious about the stocks on your New Service. I have seen what I believe to be New Service factory replacement wood stocks with the blue large head stock screw characteristic of the 1950s, rather than the small head nickel stock screw found on Pre-War guns. My theory is that Colt replaced the old stocks when doing work on Pre-War guns in the 1950s, using new production stocks with the blue big head screw. Is that what yours has?0 -
I HAVE A CUSTOM COLT NEW SERVICE 45 LONG COLT. I HAVE THE PAPERS FROM THE COLT FACTORY ALSO.THIS HANDGUN HAS AJUSTABLE SIGHTS REAR AND A NEW SIGHT BLADE ON THE FRONT. IT HAS A CUSTOM TRIGGER AND HAMMER.AND THE ACTION HAS BEEN GONE OVER. THE GRIP FRAME IS COMPLEATLY DIFFERANT THEN THE FACTORY NEW SERVICE.I HAVE PHOTOS AVALABLE.IT HAS A RAMPENT COLT IN THE CENTER OF COLT'S NEW SERVICE ON THE SIDE PLATE.IT HAS WHAT I BELEAVE IS A PAIR OF ROSEWOOD GRIPS.TO SHOOT THIS HANDGUN WAS A REAL TREAT.
QUESTION. DOES ANY ONE KNOW ED McGIVEN (SPELLING MAY BE OFF) OR MILO PLOOF (? SPELLING)? WHEN I GOT THIS HAND GUN SOME 25 YEARS AGO WHILE I WAS A DEPUTY SHERIFF IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY CALIFORNIA. I WAS TOLD IT WAS I CUSTOM HAND MADE FIREARM DESIGNED AND SMITHED BY THESE TWO GENTELMEN. AT THAT TIME IT MADE NO DIFFERANCE TO ME I JUST NOTED THE NAMES AND WENT ON MY WAY. IN FACT I CARRYED THIS GUN ON AND OFF FOR SEVERAL YEARS. TO QUALIFY WITH IT WAS A SINCH. NOW I'M LOOKING TO MAYBE FIND IT A NEW HOME. IF IT IS WHAT I BELEAVE NOW IT IS IT NEEDS TO BE IN A COLLECTION WHERE IT'S HISTORY AND BEAUTY CAN BE APPRECEATED BY MANY. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY HELPFUL.PLEAS NOT I PAID A LOT OF MONEY AT THE TIME FOR THIS ARM. I WONT BE QUICK TO LET IT GO. DAVE ANSWER THROUGH THIS FORUM OR TO joyshoppe@earthlink.net
THANK YOU CONTENDER MAN FOR POSTING MY PHOTOS.
I WENT OUT TO THE FARM AND GOT THE COLT FACTORY LETTER. IT GOES AS FOLLOWES
COLT NEW SERVICE REVOLVER
SERIAL NUMBER: 16XXX
CALIBER: . 45/c
BARREL LENGTH: 5 1/2'
FINISH: BLUE
TYPE OF STOCKS: NOT LISTED
SHIPPED TO: PACIFIC HARDWARE & STEEL CO.
ADDRESS: SAN FRANCISCO CA
DATE SHIPPED: JANUARY 14,1907
NUMBER OF GUNS IN SHIPPMENT: 5
WE TRUST THE INFORMATION SUPPLIED ABOVE WILL BE OF INTEREST.
SINCERELY,
M.S. HUBER
HISTOROAN.
I DONT KNOW IF THIS INFORMATION WILL HELP I FURTHER RESEARCH INTO THE HISTORY OF THIS GUN.
I WOULD LIKE TO GATHER AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSABLE TO FIND OUT WEATHER OR NOT ED McGIVREN HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS COLT. I KNOW IT WOULD MAKE IT WORTH A SMALL FORTUNE,BUT BETTER THEN THAT IS THE ADDITION TO THE HISTORY OF MR. McGIVREN.
I AM VERY INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT ABOUT MILO PLOOF OR PLOFF I THINK HE IS THE GUN SMITH THAT DID THE WORK ONDER ED OVERSIGHT. SOI ANY HELP FROM THE VOLUMS OF INFORMATION OUT THERE CAN ONLY HELP. AND I THANK YOU.
I THINK IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE THIS ALL OPENED UP TO US THROUGH THE GUNBROKER DISCUSSION LINE.
FOR ALL THE INFORMATION YOU ALL HAVE FURNISHED SO FAR THANK YOU. DAVE0 -
Your Honor, Judge Colt:
My New Service still has the original black rampant colt hard "gutta percha" grips that came on it. While I may post a photo of the revolver on the web I'm not sure I want to have the personal information on the paperwork shared with every man-jack that owns a PC, I may sometime later strike out that information and send YOU a facsimile0
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