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WINCHESTER MODEL 12 3-DIGIT SER#: questions...

mrmike08075
WINCHESTER MODEL 12
20 GAUGE
PUMP ACTION SHOTGUN
25" BBL (FACTORY CORRECT, not cut or altered)
FULL CHOKE
1ST YEAR PRODUCTION
SER# 102
POOR RECOIL PAD (its turned rock solid)
ALL ORIGINAL, PARTS MATCHING, #`S MATCHING
13 1/2" LOP
75% finish, blue turning grey and purple, wear on sharp edges...
75% wood, no repairs or cracks, original finish, moderate handling wear, no major checks or scratches
functions perfectly, perfect bore, lightning slick action
clean, and oiled (for once)

i would call it NRA VERY GOOD at least...

i was offered the chance to buy this one...

whats it worth??? how rare??? is it of intrest to collectors??? is it a shooter, or should this one be a collectors piece??? any info, anecdotes, opinions, etc... would be welcome.

best regards, mike.

What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.
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Comments

5 comments

Date Votes
  • asa
    The model 12 was made in the configuration that you're looking at for the first two years of production;(a moot statement since this one is 1st or 2nd MONTH) 20 ga., 25 in. barrel, full choke, and-important to know-2 1/2 in. chambers. The pad hurts if it's non-factory, but not too much if the stock isn't cut. The Blue Book (which can be inaccurate depending upon region) lists 70-80% guns from $395-$450 (again, this config.) The wild card is the serial#. The only #'s more desirable than triple digit would be double and then-best of all-single. I know of single # Winchesters bring 5-6 times their normal value and more. Only way to tell for sure is to buy the gun (I'd offer B.B. value) and put it on GunBroker with a high reserve. The serial # boys will find it soon enough. Just a possibility....Personally, I'd keep it and use it gently. _Asa
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  • only winchesters
    Good morning Mrmike! As "asa" pointed out these early guns had short chambers. Most gunsmiths, and the factory if the gun was sent there, would stamp "2 3/4" on the barrel or just below the serial number on the bottom of the receiver. So if this gun has NOT been opened up, from a collectors point of view this would be good. From a shooters point of view not good. As far as the "pad" goes, I believe the only one around at that time was the "Silvers" solid pad, (non-vented). If I recall correctly, Winchester didn't offer it until 1915. Quite a few people added pads to these early Md 12s because the LOP was short. Putting a "period" pad on would help.

    In the last few years I've seen a hand full of early 20 and 16 guage guns come up for sale and or auction. 75% is real good for a 92 year old gun!!! Buyers shy away from these because of the short chambers. I only saw 2, 20 ga. guns sell, one was for $350., the other was for $420, both were second year guns. The main selling FEATURE is the 3 digit serial number. If you want a first year gun, buy it. Serial numbers for the first year were, 1-5308. Also there were only 999, 3 digit guns made. This gun should also have the 13 groove forearm, some people replaced them with the 14 groove forearm, over the years. Which means the action slide was replaced also. As far as price goes, I wouldn't expect to pay any less than $350. Nor would I go over $750 for it. But that's me. It really boils down to how bad do you want a first year gun? I paid $475 for mine, s/n 3xxx, with a Mod. choke, about 20 years ago, because I wanted a first year gun. Let's face it, I did over pay, but I think you would be lucky to find about a 1/3 of the original first year guns still around. Good luck!
    Regards Dave
    Note: I just reread your post, it shouldn't be turning "purple" . that may be an indication that this gun was reblued at some point. Remove the barrel assy. from the receiver, the barrel chamber ring just in front of the breech bolt, should be in the "white" not blued, just like the breech bolt. The face of the receiver should be polished to white also. Nickle Steel Md 12s sometimes pick up a "purple hue" to them after a reblue. If the gun was reblued I wouldn't go over $400.
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  • mrmike08075
    1. the reciever, i think nickel-steel, is turning a grey coin color, the BBL is trending toward a purple/plum shaded blue color forward of the reciever.

    2. i dont think its been refinished...

    3. correct fore-end present

    4. short chamber model

    5. non-vented pad, but well worn, and petrified / stock does not appear to be cut or altered...

    6. the gun has the original factory paperwork, instuctions, factory literature, and a hardware store reciept with it. there is also a factory letter from 1939 detailing the repair / replacement of the extracting mechanism, as well as a factory "SERVICE, LUBRICATION, AND CLEANING" covered by warranty.

    7. the seller wants a little over $1000.00 for the gun and its paperwork / documents. i though that an offer of $800.00 would be fair considering the early DOM, low triple digit SER#, and unbelievable factory documentation...


    this is not my area of expertise, and i am not sure how to quantify the value added by the astounding paperwork and provanance...

    please chime in and offer opinions.
    thanks for the info provided so far.

    best regards, mike.

    What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
    contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.
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  • only winchesters
    Hello mrmike! Well, having "original" paper work certainly adds in value. I am always looking for original paper work and it in itself has value. The original factory instuctions, might have only the Md 12 listed, or it might have the Md 97, Md 11, and the Md 12 listed, with a little section on each. I've seen them both ways. Since the gun went back to the factory, with "ejection" problems, they all had that when using a 2 3/4 in shell! You might want to look real close at the ejection port, originally from the top corner radius to the bottom corner radius, (chamber or front side) it had a curve, not a straight line from the two corner radius'. Cutting the port to have a straight line and cutting the chamber depth is what was done to open them up for 2 3/4 in. shells.

    If the LOP is 13 1/2 with a pad, the stock was cut. It originally came with a LOP of 13 5/8s LOP that includes the hard rubber butt plate. AGAIN, it shouldn't be turning "purple", a brown patina yes, purple no. As stated earlier, remove the barrel assy. from the receiver and look at the barrel chamber ring, it's right in front of the breech bolt, it should be "in the white", if it's blued, the gun has been reblued. Without seeing the gun, and with the "paper work", to put an exact value is kind of hard, but the owner knows he has something unique since he wants a little over a $1000. for it. All I can say, verify it hasn't been reblued by looking at the chamber ring, if it hasn't, start low and dicker with the owner, I'm sure you will come to an agreeable price. The original paper work, value $100-$200, maybe more just on it's own, but with the gun together very special. Hope this helps you. Regards Dave
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  • mrmike08075
    this would be a shop purchase, not an addition to my collection. my general rule of thumb is to pay 50% of what i will plan on selling an item for, and bottom line is a minimum 33% profit (my bosses rule...).

    even if its all original finish i think his price is a bit high to turn a profit on. if i was a serious collector of these guns, in consideration of the paperwork, i would jump on it...

    i think i will offer $750.00 and see if that figure gets a sale.

    i do not own a WINCHESTER MODEL 12 in my collection, but its on my to do list. a 28 gauge would be nice...

    i will let you know what happens.
    best regards, mike.

    What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
    contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.
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