WINCHESTER 28Ga. Mod 12 features ???
Hello I have a friend that wants to sell a Winchester mod 12 I am somewhat Knowledgeable on pistols but not Shotguns I would like to know if some of the features are possiably factory This is a 28Ga. and the barrel is marked 28 Ga. skeet and 2 7/8 chamber the barrel has vent rib and the columns that support the top surface of rib are football shaped in cross section. I see no proof mark on barrel but then again I dont know where to look. The barrel extension is matching serial to the receiver. with a cleaning rod touching the bolt face with action closed it measures 26 & 1/4 inch. The receiver has engin turned bolt and loading plate . The metal on barrel and receiver is 99% .The stock has checkered pistol grip and forearm the finish has 1000"s of very very small almost invisable cracks sort of like an oil painting the stock has very high figure wood. MY question are No. 1 if I can't see a barrel proof mark does this mean it a non factory rib? No. 2 is 26 & 1/4 inch factory lenght ? No 3 Is 2 & 7/8 right chamber lenght? No 4 Were bolt and loading gate factory engin turned ? N0 5 would the wood be checkered from factory. Thanks for looking and info Karl
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If this gun is original, it is worth quite a few dollars, I would have a reputable winchester "expert" actually look at it. Many 28 guage mod 12's have been faked, made from 20 guage. But to your questions. Factory rib had the proof mark on the left side of the rib near the front of the receiver. Factory checkered - yes. 2 7/8 chamber - yes. Bolt jewelling
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Hello Karl...
quote:No. 1 if I can't see a barrel proof mark does this mean it a non factory rib? Yes. Winchester never offered Vent Ribs on the 28 gauge Model 12.
quote:No. 2 is 26 & 1/4 inch factory lenght ? An original 28 gauge Model 12 should have either a 26-inch or a 28-inch barrel. Winchester's actual barrel lengths could vary by as much as 3/8-inch on some models, but I do no believe that it was common for that to happen on their shotguns.
quote:No 3 Is 2 & 7/8 right chamber lenght? Yes.
quote:No 4 Were bolt and loading gate factory engine turned ? Yes... but only on the Deluxe guns.
quote:No 5 would the wood be checkered from factory.
Again, yes, but normally only found on the Deluxe models (e.g. Pigeon Grade.
To help us nail down the authenticity of this gun, what is the serial number?
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Hello Karl. 1) With the barrel marked 2 7/8 , that sounds original. Back when Winchester introduced the 28ga. in 1937 that was the chamber length. This can be seen on guns made into the early 50s.
2) Standard varrel lenghts for the 28ga, were 26 or 28 inches, the fact that this one measures 26 & 1/4 would be in the tolerance range for the barrel. 3) Based on your discription of the vent rib posts, it sounds like the STANDARD Vent Rib by Simmons. If you look on the side of the rib just above where you see Winchester Model 12 on the barrel you should see Simmons Gun Specialities on the side of the rib. Note; Simmons reblues all Md 12s after the rib is brazed on, and the receiver is machined for the rib ramp. 4) the stocks could be original to the gun, sounds like it was a plain barrel Skeet gun when it left the factory. the cracks in the finish I believe is known as "crazing" which is not uncommon on a gun that is about 50 years old or older. Skeet guns came with checkered stocks, but without seeing the checkering pattern, I couldn't tell you if they are factory, duplicates or true aftermarket. 5) Engine truned bolt and carriers is common on factory Skeet guns, but not often found on plain barrel guns. 6) THIS IS IMPORTANT the 28ga. was built on the 20ga. frame just like the 16 ga. was. Remove the butt stock and look at the back of the receiver were the stock goes, just above the receiver shank, (that's where the stock bolt screws into the receiver) you should see a 28 stamped into the metal, just above the groove where the stock lip fits. Simmons use to convert 16ga and 20ga guns into 28ga. guns, this included rerolling the barrel and re roll die stamping of all the Winchester info on the barrel.
I would be very carefull here, If the serial number of the gun falls below serial number 720137 (1937 start date) or above serial number 1770398 (the last year the 28ga was made in production) BE leary!!!
Simmons conversions range between $1200-$2000. A true 28ga. with a Simmons rib, $1500-$3000. If you can take some digital pictures and email them to me, winchester12@msn.com I could tell you more.
Regards Dave
A couple of other places to look is the magazine band should have a small 28 stamped on it, it will be on the back side left or the front side right. The action slide rod (the rod that goes into the receiver) should also have a 28 on the inside. you may have to remove the barrel assy. from the receiver to see it.0 -
Thanks for your reply serial is 748246 The barrel does not look to me as being cut but I was puzzeled by extra 1/4 inch on top of the normal 26 inch did they make a skeet marked barrel in longer then this. I was with my friend when he bought this gun over 25 years ago from a man who collected nice winchesters I don't see markings that say delux or pigeon etc but It is HIGH grade wood. please don't take this the wrong way but most dealers I know some times try to talk the owner into thinking there are many things wrong with a nice gun they know is for sale to try to get a better price and I was just tring to clear up some questions. I am thinking about takeing some pictures and putting on this site BUT it is so nice and shipping what it is I am afraid to trust UPS. I never see for sale local pick up only does anybody do this?with this method buyer is only out the car trip if he does not like what he sees Thanks again Karl 0 -
Perry: With the serial number, it sounds like a first year 28ga. again with the barrel being 26 1/4 that's within the tolerance. It wont say "Deluxe or Pigeon" if it's a Pigeon, there will be a Pigeon engraved just above the serial number and below the arrow on the recevier extention. Again look at the magazine band, action slide rod, and the back of the receiver for the "28". When this gun was made plain barrels or solid rib barrels were the only option. The Skeet barrel (WS-1) according to Dave Riffle didn't come out until November of 1937, Just about when yours was made according to the serial number given. Looking forward to seeing pictures. A choke guage will tell you if the barrel was a cut down from 28 inches.
Regards Dave0 -
perry! buy mine. email me. i'll bet its nicer than what your looking at! [:D] 0
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