7+ Foot Wall Gun ??? - Part 2 w/ Pix - Update 2
Craig has sent me the pix below and I've asked him for both a picture showing the overall profile of the rifle, and for some detail about the bore, mounted swivels, weight, and stock.
The first picture is of the opposite side of the lock, then the next two are from the lock side.
Next is a view from the butt end, showing what appears to be someones effort to make a recoil pad or ???? But with the arm and hand view in the shot it gives some idea of the massive size of this piece, and I've asked Craig to try and add a ruler or yard stick to his profile shot to give a better scale representation.
Lastly is an overview of the front section of the barrel, and two sub-detail images that I made from the original to try and show the mfg. technique used as maybe the "decorative" work is a style favored by a particular maker ....
To me the stock appears to be laminated, but maybe it is a trick of the eyes.
Also while there appears to be some type of sling swivel near the trigger guard I can't see any other attachment points from the butt end view, and it is a little puzzling to me that a rifle this size would have a sling ...
I know that they made some pretty good sized wall guns, but this one does not resemble anything I've seen before. Part of me keeps wanting to say early "punt" gun, but then there is that darn rifle type sight ... and with all I know about this area of firearms you could take my opinions and a $1.50 and get a cup of coffee unless the price goes up.[:D]
Anyway, as I get more pix and info from Craig I'll edit it in.
Update-1 another picture from Craig providing a muzzle end view. The bore on this "beast" has to be 2+ inches. You can see that he can't even get his hand around the stock. In the note that accompanied this latest picture Craig says that he will be out of town for a couple days, but when he returns he will measure the bore, check for rifling, weigh it and try to provide a picture that includes something to help with the size perspective. In response to the comment about the barrel being repaired, I looked at the 3 images referenced and then at the source image which is in "2400" format and I can't see it, of course I might be staring at it and just not seeing it. Lastly is it just me, or does the barrel appear to be cast instead of forged ???
Update-2: More pictures from Craig and some info. Per Craig the bore diameter is .830 inches (so much for my previous 2+ inch guess, and now you know why I'm the picture poster[:D]) Also that up to the first barrel band the barrel shape is octagon, changes to round, and finishes with the bands to scallop treatment. Next is that it is a smooth bore and that there is no barrel repair, just the transition to the last (scalloped) section. Lastly that it's weight is a bit under a measley 40 pounds ... man it looks heavier, but there is the picture with the scale to back it up.
What is this "beast"? Wall gun? Punt gun? There's that darn rifle style sight. But no apparent attachment point for mounting it. Also a single strap type swivel and no sign of where the other might have been mounted ... what's that all about?
I do believe that it was a working firearm, I'm just not sure what its' work was. However, folks that know much more about these things than I do seem to favor Punt gun.
Yes the antique dealer told Craig's dad that it was a "fortress type gun" but as I said in my original post tall guns can breed tall tales. Heck the guy wanted to sell it ...
As for the 1 of 6 and the museum interest that could apply even if it is a Punt gun ... perhaps this style of barrel is/was unique to some local/regional maker in the mid-1880's and he only built six of them.
Unless someone here can definately nail this down I would suggest the next step to be contacting museums. And I still think the West Point Museum may be able to help, so if anyone has any experience with West Point, please give Craig some advice on the best way to approach them.
This has been fun, and I hope one day to find out exactly what it is and even who made it ... so here's the last of the pixs.
The first picture is of the opposite side of the lock, then the next two are from the lock side.
Next is a view from the butt end, showing what appears to be someones effort to make a recoil pad or ???? But with the arm and hand view in the shot it gives some idea of the massive size of this piece, and I've asked Craig to try and add a ruler or yard stick to his profile shot to give a better scale representation.
Lastly is an overview of the front section of the barrel, and two sub-detail images that I made from the original to try and show the mfg. technique used as maybe the "decorative" work is a style favored by a particular maker ....
To me the stock appears to be laminated, but maybe it is a trick of the eyes.
Also while there appears to be some type of sling swivel near the trigger guard I can't see any other attachment points from the butt end view, and it is a little puzzling to me that a rifle this size would have a sling ...
I know that they made some pretty good sized wall guns, but this one does not resemble anything I've seen before. Part of me keeps wanting to say early "punt" gun, but then there is that darn rifle type sight ... and with all I know about this area of firearms you could take my opinions and a $1.50 and get a cup of coffee unless the price goes up.[:D]
Anyway, as I get more pix and info from Craig I'll edit it in.
Update-1 another picture from Craig providing a muzzle end view. The bore on this "beast" has to be 2+ inches. You can see that he can't even get his hand around the stock. In the note that accompanied this latest picture Craig says that he will be out of town for a couple days, but when he returns he will measure the bore, check for rifling, weigh it and try to provide a picture that includes something to help with the size perspective. In response to the comment about the barrel being repaired, I looked at the 3 images referenced and then at the source image which is in "2400" format and I can't see it, of course I might be staring at it and just not seeing it. Lastly is it just me, or does the barrel appear to be cast instead of forged ???
Update-2: More pictures from Craig and some info. Per Craig the bore diameter is .830 inches (so much for my previous 2+ inch guess, and now you know why I'm the picture poster[:D]) Also that up to the first barrel band the barrel shape is octagon, changes to round, and finishes with the bands to scallop treatment. Next is that it is a smooth bore and that there is no barrel repair, just the transition to the last (scalloped) section. Lastly that it's weight is a bit under a measley 40 pounds ... man it looks heavier, but there is the picture with the scale to back it up.
What is this "beast"? Wall gun? Punt gun? There's that darn rifle style sight. But no apparent attachment point for mounting it. Also a single strap type swivel and no sign of where the other might have been mounted ... what's that all about?
I do believe that it was a working firearm, I'm just not sure what its' work was. However, folks that know much more about these things than I do seem to favor Punt gun.
Yes the antique dealer told Craig's dad that it was a "fortress type gun" but as I said in my original post tall guns can breed tall tales. Heck the guy wanted to sell it ...
As for the 1 of 6 and the museum interest that could apply even if it is a Punt gun ... perhaps this style of barrel is/was unique to some local/regional maker in the mid-1880's and he only built six of them.
Unless someone here can definately nail this down I would suggest the next step to be contacting museums. And I still think the West Point Museum may be able to help, so if anyone has any experience with West Point, please give Craig some advice on the best way to approach them.
This has been fun, and I hope one day to find out exactly what it is and even who made it ... so here's the last of the pixs.
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Just my 2 cents but it not being flintlock"I SEE NO INDICATION IT WAS CONVERTED" this would put it somewhere 1840 or later so I still think it would be too late for a wall gun and is a punt gun. sights on a smooth bore is somewhat a puzzle also the fancy muzzle treatment but it does look crude to put it mildly .Thanks for the pictures I know many people wanted to see it. Karl 0 -
Karl, I agree on the ID of a punt gun; the wall guns typically had a means of anchoring them to solid objects. The "fancy" muzzle treatment is only a crude repair - look closely at the last three photos and there is a split in the barrel just forward of the two bands which extends almost to the muzzle.
Edit:
Ah, OK, in the newest photo the flutes are evident. In the originals, on my system, all I could see was a dark line and what appeared to be some sort of wire repair. Hey, I only walk on water in January! [;)]
But I still think it was used as a punt gun. In many cases, they were mounted in a frame - no rational person is going to put something that large to their shoulder . . . and the crazy ones will only do it once.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / demoMAGGOTS" (me)0 -
From the pictures all that can be ascertained, is that it has a back action lock ( circa 1820's/30's ? ), very crude "village blacksmith" construction, NO fitting for a "Swivel Mounting" which would have been found on a gun used most likely by the military.
Because of the above,I agree with the previous posters.0 -
All I can add here is that the pictures really reinforce the Punt gun identity. I saw no attachment point for a pintle or other mount, so as mentioned I think also the wall gun theory is in the toilet. Lots of punt gun simply rested in the trough at the bow of the boat or were secured in it by means of leather thongs. I think you can honestly use the old addage "the next size bigger comes on wheels" with this one!!
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"Power corrupts...Absolute power corrupts absolutely"(Descartes?)
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)0 -
Definately a Punt Gun...MOAT Guns mostly had a Swival and Spike attached towards the front of the barrel, at the time of protecting the Castle with a firearm the Walls around the Old Homestead had Holes drilled in the Top for the Spike to rest in.. and used like a Parrot on the old sailing Man 'O' Wars of yesteryear....The other givaway is the Squared Butt...Unless you've never seen a photo of a Punt Gun and Hunter.....Imagine a 12 to 14 foot PUNT...[Wooden Jon Boat]with a 4 by 4 Wooden Post about 4" above the Gunwales..The Hunter would slowly push His Boat out into the open water and Load His Gun with Shot and then laydown along side this behemoth and cover himself and Gun with Brush so as to look like floating debre to the Fowl...When he had drifted into an area that was covered with Ducks and Geese He would place the Butt of the Gun against the Post and when the Boat/Gun was positioned to His Liking....pull the trigger and KAPOW!...I've read that at times it was possible to get upwards of 50 Birds at one shot...These were mostly Market Hunters...From past discussions and reading I've concluded that the Chesapeke Bay area was the sight of most Commercial Hunting using Punt Guns....
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
One more possibility: Could the gun have been custom built for the purpose advertising an early gunsmith or gun makers operation? Or an oversized model of a normal sized rifle? Darn thing looks too clumsy to be functional. The swivels for a sling made me think of the decorative or advertising angle. I once saw an oversized military BAR made out of Aluminum with cut out sections to demonstrate how the gun functioned. Don't laugh just a thought.
Worry is the interest humans pay on the debt of miscalculation.<BR>0 -
I agree that this is most likely a punt gun or market-hunting gun.
However, if Rufe Snow is correct in dating this unusual firearm, let me propose a possible alternative theory that this might be a locally made "stockade gun" for use on the "Western Frontier".....at that time still mostly East of the Mississipi River.
Many frontier communities built and maintained a stockade as a place of refuge during Indian attacks....this may possibly have been a "wall gun", locally built for use under those circumstances.
In any case, it sure is fun to speculate on what this fascinating is weapon is.......I love a mystery.
This is one for the "History Detectives".....my favorite TV show![:D]0 -
Gentlemen,
As interesting as these pictures are, it is dificult to see the thing in it's whole for perspective. I am wondering what length of pull this gun has. If LOP is +/- 14 inches it supports actual use theories. If LOP is +/- 24 inches, enlarged on a scale with the rest of this "Paul Bunyon Gun" it would indicate it's use was advertizing or decorative.
"all I really need to know I learned in kindergarten" Robert Fulghum
anyone who says "nobody needs a full auto" has never been in front of a brown bear charge0 -
I was going to say it looks like a couple of "market" guns I have seen in museums. Would hate to have to try to shoulder that thing and touch it off!
JOhn
The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson0 -
Am interesting antique indeed. But could someone with more knowledge than me(a neophyte) take a look at that nipple? Does it look like a usual nipple in use at the time this weapon was supposedly made?
(I have no idea-the only smokepoles I have any experience with were all "modernized")
Si vis Pacem,Para Bellum-if you want peace, prepare for war--Thucydides
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IT IS BETTER TO DIE THAN LIVE A COWARD-the Ghurka motto0 -
Note that the trigger guard is installed backwards, apparently cut down from a probably a musket. The present front end sawed off and the other end with the finial normally facing forward. This is probably an assembled gun made for any of the purposes suggested above. The barrel muzzle looks Italian to me. As for all the hooraw about recoil, the bore is only a tad bigger than old musket bores and the weight must be twice that of a musket. A look at the inside of the lock might tell us something. This back-action lock could never have been a flinter. I have worked on several long fowlers but nothing so crude and clumsy as this. 0 -
I agree with the majority and also think that it is a punt gun. The back action lock did not become popular until the mid to late '40s and was used until the end of the muzzle loading era. The nipple looks like what is left of a musket nipple. The decorative treatment at the muzzle almost looks oriental. When I was in South East Asia I saw several old muzzle loading cannon with almost exactly the same design at the muzzle. I feel that this gun is not as old as many people think. I would think 1870's to 1880's which was the hayday of the market hunters. Anyway it is fun to speculate! 0 -
That my friends is a chineese duck gun. Made for the Emperor. I beleive it is the one we found in Nam in a bunker.( the vc would use anything) A man stood with it on his shoulder while the shooter fired it.[:)][:D] 0 -
I have to question the response from Da-Tank. I tried to e-mail him why he thought this and if he had every seen this gun before, but the mail demon states that his e-mail address is N.G. (Is his Response?)
Craig0
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