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C&R bound book and...............

tapwater
I hate to ask a C&R question...I know it's been beat to death, but you know about those gray areas. Keeping the C&R acqisition & disposition bound book is a no brainer. My personal firearms that were acquired before I got the C&R are recorded in a similar book...Question #1...Do new acquisitions using the C&R become "personal firearms"-to be recorded in both books?...#2....Same question for dispositions (sales, swaps)?...#3..Pre license personal firearms that are C&R eligible...Do sales/swaps stay in the personal records, or both books..?

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • mark christian
    All firearms obtained using a C&R license are personal firearms because having a C&R does not allow you to act as a dealer. When you give up your C&R all you have to do is shread your A&D book and walk away, no records are sent to the BATFE. No one at the BATFE is going to care how many personal firearms "books" or computer programs you keep just so long as you have your mandated A&D book available for inspection and anything else you do so far as additional inventory lists are your own business. Keep in mind that as a licensed collector any C&R firearms you owned before you obtained your license must be logged into and out of your A&D book if sold.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • tapwater
    Per your last sentence...Only if sold, or should those pre-owned eligible guns be in the A&D book now?....Thanks

    The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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  • mark christian
    Any C&R firearms you currently own should be in your A&D book. Since all of your firearms are personal property you cannot differentiate between C&R firearms owned before or after you obtained your license...they are all C&R and you own them all. As a firearms dealer I can have personally owned firearms but each of them must be clearly marked: PERSONAL FIREARM, NOT FOR SALE. The reason for this is the understanding that every firearm in the licensed primisses of a dealer is considered inventory intended for resale so any firearms which are my personal property must be clearly marked. As a collector all firearms at your licensed primisses are your personal property.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • tapwater
    Thanks Mark, that makes perfect sense.....

    The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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  • EOD Guy
    Mark,

    I'm going to have to disagree with you on a Type 03 licensee shredding their records when they are no longer licensed. 27CFR, Section 478.129(e) appears to require the A&D records to be retained for 20 years. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but we both know that doesn't always mean anything, especially since collectors are an after-thought in many parts of the law and regulation.



    TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

    CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
    DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

    PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

    Subpart H_Records

    Sec. 478.129 Record retention.


    (e) Records of dealers and collectors under the Act. The records
    prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors under the Act of
    the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record
    of receipt of such firearms shall be retained through December 15, 1988,
    after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be
    discarded.
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  • joel_black
    I agree with Mark. Even the latest ATFE mailing clearly states that Collector's records can be destroyed when the licence is not renewed.
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  • mazo kid
    My understanding is that only those firearms acquired USING your C&R license have to be recorded in the bound book. I don't think that just because I have a C&R license that I have to record guns I acquired either from a face-to-face deal or a gun shop at an earlier time. If I sell one of those guns to upgrade my collection and the buyer needs a C&R to acquire the gun, then it should be recorded. Comments? Emery

    "Well done is better than well said"
    Ben Franklin
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  • mark christian
    EOD, the most recent (August 2004) edition of the FFL Newsletter clearly states on page 7 under the heading of; Activities authorized by licnesed collectors of curio and relic firearms: "Licensed collectors are NOT (stated in bold print in the newsletter) required to turn in their acquistion/disposition records if their license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity". I was exagerating when I said you could shread it (I'd keep it around for reference) but I am certain that, unlike Type 01 dealers, a collector's A&D book does not need to be sent into the BATFE, just as I said in my first post.

    Mark T. Christian
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  • EOD Guy
    Mark,

    I totaly agree that the book does not have to be sent to BATF. My point is that the regulation appears to require the collector to keep the book for 20 years after the last entry regardless of his current license status. I think it's time for another letter to the Firearms Programs Division asking for clarification.

    Rich

    P.S. Letter sent. I'll let you know what they say.
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  • EOD Guy
    quote:Originally posted by joel_black
    I agree with Mark. Even the latest ATFE mailing clearly states that Collector's records can be destroyed when the licence is not renewed.


    I read the newsletter too and it certainly did not say the collector's records could be destroyed. It said that they did not have to be sent to the records center.
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  • EOD Guy
    quote:Originally posted by mazo kid
    My understanding is that only those firearms acquired USING your C&R license have to be recorded in the bound book. I don't think that just because I have a C&R license that I have to record guns I acquired either from a face-to-face deal or a gun shop at an earlier time. If I sell one of those guns to upgrade my collection and the buyer needs a C&R to acquire the gun, then it should be recorded. Comments? Emery

    "Well done is better than well said"
    Ben Franklin


    BATF disagrees with you. The regulation requires that all acquisitions and dispositions of C&R firearms by a licensed collector have to be entered in the "bound book". See 27CFR, 478.125(f). BATF sent out a letter to all licensees at the end of 2000, I believe, reminding collectors of that requirement.
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