9mm from a 10mm case? = 9x 23 ??
I'm a cop looking a handgum round that will punch a hole through a bad guy's body armor. It can't be marked "armor piercing" and it needs to be of the same caliber as one of the 90+ % one shot stopper rounds.
I've got 3 heavily armed gangs fighting a turf war in my new patrol area and they're acquiring every bullet resistant vest they see, mostly 2's and 3a's. Unfortunately, my elected boss won't authorize me carry my H&K 91, so I'm stuck with one handgun and a 12 guage. The caliber can be "9mm to .45" (he didn't specify which 9mm or which .45). He prefers a factory loaded caliber for various reasons.
I used to carry a .44 Rem. Mag. S&W M629 w/ a 6" bbl, and can again, but I was hoping for a very fast round from a semi-auto, preferably stainless steel of polimer. I've always been a bigger is better man- I carry a 645 loaded with 230gr Hydra-shoks now (perfect round as far as I'm concerned). I was the target in a driveby several years ago and one of my Hydra-shoks went through the roof support of an El Camino, through 3 stolen stereos, and fell out on the ground when the passenger opened his door- it looked like one of those ad pictures- perfect mushroom. I wouldn't have believed it if I wasn't there, and no I wasn't on pain meds- the shooter missed me and the whole car behind me.
So, I'm thinking a .357 Sig handloaded with some sort of very light weight FMJ or solid copper round-nose(probably have to be hand poured) loaded to +P+ levels. Can a 9 x 23 be loaded faster than a .357 Sig? If so, any suggestions on a 9 x 23 pistol you'd bet your life on? Could a 10 mm shell be necked down to 9mm and produce an even faster round? I'm planning on carrying one magazine of these on my belt and keep the 90+ % one stop rounds in the pistol and first backup magazine.
I've got 3 heavily armed gangs fighting a turf war in my new patrol area and they're acquiring every bullet resistant vest they see, mostly 2's and 3a's. Unfortunately, my elected boss won't authorize me carry my H&K 91, so I'm stuck with one handgun and a 12 guage. The caliber can be "9mm to .45" (he didn't specify which 9mm or which .45). He prefers a factory loaded caliber for various reasons.
I used to carry a .44 Rem. Mag. S&W M629 w/ a 6" bbl, and can again, but I was hoping for a very fast round from a semi-auto, preferably stainless steel of polimer. I've always been a bigger is better man- I carry a 645 loaded with 230gr Hydra-shoks now (perfect round as far as I'm concerned). I was the target in a driveby several years ago and one of my Hydra-shoks went through the roof support of an El Camino, through 3 stolen stereos, and fell out on the ground when the passenger opened his door- it looked like one of those ad pictures- perfect mushroom. I wouldn't have believed it if I wasn't there, and no I wasn't on pain meds- the shooter missed me and the whole car behind me.
So, I'm thinking a .357 Sig handloaded with some sort of very light weight FMJ or solid copper round-nose(probably have to be hand poured) loaded to +P+ levels. Can a 9 x 23 be loaded faster than a .357 Sig? If so, any suggestions on a 9 x 23 pistol you'd bet your life on? Could a 10 mm shell be necked down to 9mm and produce an even faster round? I'm planning on carrying one magazine of these on my belt and keep the 90+ % one stop rounds in the pistol and first backup magazine.
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First let me say welcome to GB. The 357sig is a 40s&w necked down to 9mm. The double tap ammo may be what you are looking for. The SIG P229 is a very fine hand gun with this round and ammo. Also with just a barrel change you can use the 40S&W round. The 10mm is still more powerful. My 2 cents [8D]
Greg
Former Marine
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Since you're in law enforcement, you should have no problem "LEGALLY" getting your hands on 9mm THV ammo ( French ). Or obtaning a FN 57 Pistol with the naughty armor piercing ammo. Since both the above items are "Off The Shelf" and readily available to LEGITIMENT law enforcement entities, your problems are solved.
Here is a link to the FN pistol.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=2
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Hmmm. That's a toughie. There is the 9x23 Steyr, the 9x23 Mauser Export, the 9 mm Win mag (9x25 I believe?) and several others that might suffice to get more speed from a 355 projectile, but as opposed to "punching" vests, what about just breaking bones behind them. I fear using a correctly designed bullet that would accomplish your desired effect of penetrating a vest would not perform correctly on soft targets...ie, no expansion and danger of through and through shots. To my way of thinking, using a 454 Casull or 480 Ruger to +p levels will make the bad guy WISH he was dead at least! Nothing like catching full energy transfer in the chest on the order of 1000 ft lbs to make you cooperative! There are not too many people that are going to be able to stand and breath after absorbing that much energy. Most situations I've seen(from viewing prospecti for some of my investments) had the lawman get up after the vest saved his life; but it was several minutes and they then had about the ugliest bruise you've ever seen. Most of these LEO's also spoke of the experience as though it were an out of body thing. They were aware of what was going on around them but were uterly unable to do anything about it! Maybe knocking the perp silly (and temporarily paraplegic) is preferable from a liability standpoint as well! Tough decision; good luck!
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"Power corrupts...Absolute power corrupts absolutely"(Descartes?)
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)0 -
non illigati carborundum is spelled Illegitimi Non Carborundum. [:D] [:D] [8D] Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
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hey ruger niner- thanks for the correction- I lost the original several years ago, and was flying by the seat of my pants.
ruf-snow: it's not the access to the armor piercing, it's keeping my job (dept. policy) until I can retire! Boss hates the p.r. problem & liability of armor piercing ammo- guess burrying me and not having to pay my eventual pension is less of a problem :-(
1kydstr: I doubt my boss'd believe a .480 Ruger is only .45 cal, same with the .454 casull. there for a while I carried my 6" 629 with some 300+ gr full metal jacket flat tipped conical ammo... then the rules changed- no second handgun. also if it was qualified with before april 1985, and it's a revolver it has to have a 3-4 " bbl. Now I regularly shoot my 3" lew horton special m629 from smith with full house ammo and used to qual with it every year. Once I even shot somebody's .44 handload in it that even made me cringe, but I really don't want to fire 50 rounds of .454 or .480 from even a magnported 4" bbl once a year for the next 6 to 9 years.
I do like the idea of discombobulating the suspect with a heavy, hot .44, maybe that's the ticket. I'm not looking forward to carrying a 6" bbl again, much less with my patrol spread and in a new Impala. My 645's holster gets ate up as it is, and those SS 3 holsters don't come cheap. Although there is some awe factor, I quit carrying it after playing tug of war with it 1 night in a closet. Long story short- 2 suspects. 1 fighting me over the revolver while keeping it pointed at the other. I couldn't shoot the 1 not fighting just to see if #1 suspect'd let go- I doubt if even a Houston jury let me walk on that one1. Maybe if I magna-port a 4" .44 and carry 1 speed loader of heavy duty ammo...of course 6 rounds doesn't sound like plenty of ammo, maybe enough though.
Thanks for the imput folks- you've given me some insite on the topic.0 -
gap 1916: I know what double tapping is, what is double tap ammo? Having been in a fire fight or 2, I can't see the real possibility of putting 2 rounds in the same hole on a moving, shooting back target, no matter how much any ammo could facilitate it. is this some high penetration ammo? is it at www.doubletapammo.com ? so far I don't see it with a go.com search, let me look some more. Thanks for your time.
P.S.: anyone with insite that they hesitate to put on any site can e-mail me direct at martyk@wt.net. And yes- for all those brother officers who will want to remind me that it is better to be tried by 12 (or look for a new job) than to be carryied by 6, I already know it. I'm just getting a little long in the tooth to be running obsticle courses in search of new employment, so I'd kinda like to play within the rules, as best as i can and still stay alive & gainfully employed! ;-)0 -
If you can handle the recoil the .440 cor-bon Desert Eagle might fit your description.. Its technically in your 9mm to .45 caliber range .
The 240gr. JHP 440C is at 1900+ ft/sec. and 1900+ lbs/ft...
Should punch a 3A vest AND knock them on their butts..
http://www.zvis.com/dep/aevscorb.shtml
Basically its a .50 AE necked down to .44.
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=23167909 (.50 AE)0 -
doubletap ammo is loaded very hot. +P or +P+. It is much better than corbon. [8D]
Greg
Former Marine
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What you might be referring to is called 9x25 Dillon. It is simply a 10mm case necked to 9mm (in a manner like the .40 S&W case is necked to a 9mm for the .357 SIG).
It is a nice, potent round but then again so is the 10mm in its stock form.
DoubleTapAmmo is the maker of very powerful 10mm ammo. It got its name because he makes a duplex load with a round ball and a light hollow point bullet that when fired leaves two holes. His real claim to fame is just raw speed and power. How does right in the middle of factory .41 mag levels sound from a 10mm without exceeding SAAMI specs? He is also selling loaded ammo and componants for the 9x25 Dillon. Here's the website: http://doubletapammo.com/main_site/index.html Thier ammo not only lives up to its billing but usually exceeds it on the few chrono tests I've done on it.
The 10mm - either you've got it, or you don't get it...0 -
If your boss is that big of a PC wonk then he'll hang you out to dry if you try and use a trick gun/round that technically fits his specs, cuz the "puss" will forget or lose those specs. the minute you use it.
If your part of a bargaining unit discuss w/ your rep. and see if they can push it. If not ... then practice your butt off on fast combinations of chest/head shots with your duty pistol. And when using the shotgun aim high or aim low and they will go down and be in no shape to continue the fight, and unless it against more of the "dept. policy" you may want to stagger your rounds between buck shot and slugs...lastly I know many advocate double ought buck, but consider using number 4 buck ... more pellets in the air.
Good luck to ya!
PS - RBCS makes standard caliber handgun ammo in LE and Mil. configs. that defeats armor, but it's that "policy" thing again ....
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0
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