i need a barrel for my winchester
i have a old wichester 12 ga shotgun i am not sure of the modle number but it looks kinda like a browning a-5 and to open the chamber you pull the barrel back. i need a barrel for this gun the end broke off inside the chamber can anyone help me figure out the modle number and help me find a new barrel thanks for oyur time
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this sounds like a win. m-11. you do NOT want to fix it (unless it is for a collection). they were known as 'the widow maker', not a very good design. and dangerous to operate. 0 -
Hello highroller...
It is a Winchester Model 1911, and it is definitely NOT worth the cost involved in trying to repair it. You would be better off selling it as a parts gun.
The Model 1911 was discontinued in about 1925, and there is no such thing as finding "new" parts. This Model's design problem was that it could not handle anything other than the low brass loads it was specifically designed for, and way too many of the people who owned them insisted on using "heavy" loads in them. When they did so, the end result was what you now have on your hands. In addition to a barrel, it will (at a minumum) also need a new buffer assembly.
As for it being dangerous to operate... that is purely and simply a MYTH that has been perpetuated along with its nickname "widow maker". I was involved in this exact same discussion on a different forum board recently. I will try to find it, and cut & paste it into this string later.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Welcome to the forum highroller! If you look just behind the receiver where the butt stock and receiver meet on the tang it should say Model 1911 SL, that would verify the Model. Mike is correct they where known as the "Widow Maker", this gun did weed out careless operators that's for sure. Depending on where it "broke" it may be able to be fixed. Used barrels for these guns start at about $79. and go up fast depending on length and choke. The barrels on these aren't interchangeable meaning it will require some fitting, not many gunsmiths around who know how to work on these. I think you could be in the $200. range real quick to get it fixed. The gun in operating condition is worth somewhere from $200-$350, depending on condition. If it's been in the family a long time and you want to fix it up that's one thing, but I think you either have a wall hanger or a parts gun to keep another one operating. although a unique gun, it isn't fun to shoot, they really kick the snot out of you.
If you need the names of some good Winchester Gunsmiths email me, just click on onlywinchesters in the left margin. Regards Dave0 -
quote:Originally posted by only winchesters
Mike is correct they where known as the "Widow Maker", this gun did weed out careless operators that's for sure.
Dave... the above is a wholly unsubstantiated statement, and in reality is simply NOT true[:(]. It is nothing more than an urban myth that was perpetuated by the other semi-auto shotgun makers of the time (Browning and Remington), and those who supported them.
Yes, the Model 1911 SL was/is one B.U.T.T. ugly shotgun, and it did have an unusual/unique operating method required to chamber the first round (W. Mason created it to avoid patent infringement with J. Browning and FN's Auto-5), but it was definitely NOT "unsafe" to operate or a true "widow maker". Its only true downfall was the weak/poor design of the recoil buffer... which is why many of them still shooting today "kick the snot out of you". That weak design is what led Winchester into discontinuing the model after a moderate production run. If the 1911 SL had really been "unsafe" to operate, don't you believe that Winchester would have recalled it instead of simply discontinuing it[?]
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Bert: Any gun is only as safe as the person who is using it. The Md 1911 had a propensity to fire when cocking it, especially when dirty, and the safety in the off position.
From R. Stadts shotgun gook "This gun was designed by TC Johnson and had 55 design changes in the first 3 years of production". Not good for something that's in production!!
Also "Although the Md 11 sold in acceptable quantities it acquired a bad reputation. People did not adapt well to using the knurled section of the barrel for opening, and or cocking the gun. I know of two people who shot off their fingers by pulling the end of the barrel instead of using the knurled section". "there are safer guns".
Do I think they would have recalled the gun. You are applying todays standards to a busnisiness practice some 80 plus years ago. Recalls become real well known in the auto industry in the 70's, ie; the Ford Pinto. In the teens and 20's I have not come accross a product that was manufactured and recalled. Companies just stopped making the product as Winchester did with the Md 1911. Product liabiity was something unheard of back then. If Winchester would have come out with this gun in the 1990's, the law suits would have put them out of business. The Md 40 was the first gun, or product that I can think of that was actually recalled. After all if a woman can sue and collect millions from McDonalds for serving coffee to hot that she was dumb enough to spill on herself, imagine what a careless gun owner could do!! Regards Dave0 -
hi Bert, my intention was to caution this poster as to to safty (or lack thereof) and the cost OF REPAIR (prohibitive) of this shotgun. for those who don't know the, easyest way to operate (load/unload/clear a dud) this shot gun is to place the butt on the ground, grab the knured part of the barrel and push down to operate the action... now guess where the muzzel is pointing. I have heard (no proof) that at one time win. would offer to replace a used m-1911 sent in for repair with a new m-12. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by only winchesters
Bert: Any gun is only as safe as the person who is using it. The Md 1911 had a propensity to fire when cocking it, especially when dirty, and the safety in the off position.
From R. Stadts shotgun gook "This gun was designed by TC Johnson and had 55 design changes in the first 3 years of production". Not good for something that's in production!!
Also "Although the Md 11 sold in acceptable quantities it acquired a bad reputation. People did not adapt well to using the knurled section of the barrel for opening, and or cocking the gun. I know of two people who shot off their fingers by pulling the end of the barrel instead of using the knurled section". "there are safer guns".
Do I think they would have recalled the gun. You are applying todays standards to a busnisiness practice some 80 plus years ago. Recalls become real well known in the auto industry in the 70's, ie; the Ford Pinto. In the teens and 20's I have not come accross a product that was manufactured and recalled. Companies just stopped making the product as Winchester did with the Md 1911. Product liabiity was something unheard of back then. If Winchester would have come out with this gun in the 1990's, the law suits would have put them out of business. The Md 40 was the first gun, or product that I can think of that was actually recalled. After all if a woman can sue and collect millions from McDonalds for serving coffee to hot that she was dumb enough to spill on herself, imagine what a careless gun owner could do!! Regards Dave
Hello Dave... your quotes from Stadt's book are exactly what I am talking about[:(]. Stadt simply requoted information that he "heard" but did NOT verify[V]. All too aften, one "hears about" someone, who knew someone, who had a friend (or family) member etc.) that blew his fingers off with a Model 1911... but NOT ONE of those stories has ever been verified[V].
I have previously researched this precise topic, and the Model 1911 SL did not (or does not) have ANY propensity what-so-ever to accidently fire during the process of loading the first shell in the chamber... it is nothing more than a bad and unjust MYTH. If the question had been "Does the Winchester Model 1911 deserve its reputation as a poorly designed shotgun?", then the answer is a HEARTY yes. However, if the question is "Is the Winchester Model 1911 an inherently unsafe shotgun", then the answer is a definite NO. I have owned three of them over the years, and I NEVER once had one of them accidently go off when chambering a shell, nor have I ever heard of it happening to anyone else in the past 35 years. That does not mean that it never happened, just that it is a very rare malfunction. For what it is worth, there are still a fair number of them out there in use today (though the vast majority have been retired).
Mike... In my first post, I completely agreed with you in that it is not cost effective to repair an old broken down Model 1911. What I did not agree with is the MYTH about them being "widow makers". As for Winchester offering to replace a Model 1911 with a Model 1912... not true. What is true, is that Winchester did offer to replace any Model 1893 slide-action with a new Model 1897 slide-action (due to the 1893 coming apart when smokeless powder shells were used in them). No such offer ever existed with the Models 1911/1912... just another one of those myths that got started down at the local gunshop.
Finally, just so that everyone who reads this can better understand where I am coming from, in addition to being a serious Winchester firearms collector, I have thus far spent several thousands of hours researching Winchester's history and firearms developements... in preparation for the reference book that I am in the process of writing about the Model 1885 Single-Shot. I have particularly paid very close attention to all available factual information during the timeframe between 1883 (when Winchester bought John M. Browning's patent for the Single-Shot rifle), and 1930 (when Winchester sold off all remaining parts and tooling for the Model 1885). My personal library of Winchester "stuff" (I really do like George Carlin's standup comedy routine on "Stuff"), is quite extensive, and is growing nearly everyday. This does not make me an "expert", just very well informed[^].
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Well Bert: I'm not sure what part of Stsdt's statement" I personally know of two people who blew off their fingers" sounds like second hand information.
You are the the one who said " accidently fire during the process of loading the first shell into the chamber" Who said anything about the first round? I use to hunt with an older man, back in the late 60s who shot a Md 11. It would "double fire" on occasion, after he removed his finger from the trigger. I finally stopped hunting with him, because of it. When the Md 11 failed to kick a round out and people manually cycled the gun, trying to eject that round, it's the next round that gave problems.
Sometimes you assume way to much. Granted you may own 3, Md 11's but I doubt if they are "beaters", most likely in very collectable condition like the one I own.
When you spend upwards to a 100 days a year in the field, not the range, and hunt in all possible conditions, you see quite a bit. I've seen people with guns so dirty I would be afraid to shoot them, but they are out there. Not everyone cares for there gun like you and I. Not a year has gone by in the last 30, that I haven't offered to help a fellow hunter out with a gun problem. It amazes me some of the junk I've pulled out of them. So Bert don't assume all guns are clean and functioning properly.
I had an uncle who only cleaned his guns after hunting season. Wise no, but that was him.
This is for Mike Whiskey: Winchester did offer those who bought a Md 40, a Winchester of there choice if they returned them to the factory. Most people chose a Md 12, which at the time cost about $30. less. And it's always wise to point out short comings of a gun to a person who may not know, well done.
I hope Bert that some of your "information" that you are gathering for your book actually includes field use, and not just range use in ideal conditions. Any firearm that has 55 design changes in the first 3 years of production, is bound to have a few problems. In your reading and research, you may want to study matal facrication, metal manufacturing, and assembly techniques.
Dave0
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