caseless ammo????
what is the advantage of having caseless, eletric firing ammo? and how is it "caseless"?
one shot, one kill
one shot, one kill
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Caseless ammo has been experimented unsuccessfully by Smith & Wesson and Hecker& Koch, among others. The advantage lies in not having to provide a metal case (cost). It is caseless, because the propellent is pressed into a dense cake of powder. The bullet is inserted into a cavity in the powder, or glued to the cake's top. A hot electric "point" or spot created by a short circuit caused by pressing the trigger ignites the powder. After ignition and firing of the bullet, nothing remains to eject. So, why isn't this system in use? Because it is very difficult to protect the caseless propellent from moisture. In brass cased ammo the propellent is sealed away from moisture by the case/bullet/primer; but unprotected it is dependent on various moisture resitant chemical additives and coatings that have been tried. They slow or hinder ignition. Hence, the system is not acceptable for military use. 0 -
thanks i was clueless
one shot, one kill0 -
The miltary has been experimenting with caseless ammo for decades. the major advantage is that by eliminating the brass case you save on weight (you can carry more ammo) and conserve brass, which is a stratigic material during war time. You also do away with the need for much of the ejection mechanisim inside the firearm (always a troublesome area) and need only have a small loading/unloading gate which will stay cloased 99% of the time keeping the weapon sealed and clean. Caseless ammo consists of a special compressed powder which has the bullet seated in it and a metal foil type ignition "primer" (really a contact) at its base. I have a caseless Voere sporting rifle which fires by using an electronic ignition system which is powered by two batteries in the pistol grip which provides enough current through the contact to ignite the cartridge. It functions flawlessly and everything is consumed with nothing to eject. I will take a few photos of this special caseless ammo in the morning and try to post them later in the day.
The downside for military firearms is that the chunky old brass case
serves quite a few useful purposes, not the least of which is that is helps keep the powder, primer, and bullet in one tough and relatively clean individual unit. A loaded ball round of ammo in a brass case can take quite a bit of abuse and still fire with reliability. In full automatic fire the brass forms a very useful heat sink and when the case is ejected it takes a considerable amount of that heat out of the weapon and sends it sailing away (if you've been hit by a hot case you know this). Caseless ammo also generates considerable heat and this heat build up has no where to go and stays inside the weapon making cook-offs a potential problem.
I think caseless ammo has a future but is still a long way away from general issue to the armed forces or seeing much use in the hunting fields.
Mark T. Christian0 -
I do believe that before this technology is perfected ray guns will be in common use.[:D] 0 -
I had a Daisy caseless .22. They must have used some type of diesel ignition since you had to pump the rifle one time like an air rifle.
The ammo was expensive, accuracy was poor & you had to use a cleaning rod to push the round out from the muzzle if you didn't want to shoot.0 -
Mark C. covered it well. One other disdavantage of caseless ammo, discovered in testing in the 1970s, is that if struck by "incoming," it will often ignite, causing potentially lethal burns. It's a tricky balancing act to create a propellant charge which will ignite as needed but not "cook-off" in a chamber or ignite from external causes. DAG (the division of Dynamite Nobel which works closely with the German military) has a 4mm (projectile) telescoped caseless in trials at this time - I have examples of about six different loads. A few Colts were converted to use a version of this ammunition for our ACRS tests, but it was not adopted. Like the Mtn Hunter, I'm not holding my breath. Our military has been trying to create an accurate & effective multi-projectile cartridge for over 100 years, they still have not succeeded, and I daresay that is an easier task.
The civilian Voere design is, I think, still on the market, but no one is clamoring to buy it, either.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / demoMAGGOTS" (me)0 -
gruntled...your daisy VL-22 was ignited by hot air under extreme pressure created by the pumped air,(friction.) another reason caseless is not all that great, is if the solid propellent cracks, the burn will only go up to the crack and stop. but lest we forget, caseless is still used to this day...in the form of muzzle loaders![:)] 0 -
Well I promised to post the photo of my caseless ammo this morning but naturally I got caught up in all sorts of issues today and could not break free until now. This is the special 5.7mm caseless ammuntion used by my Voere sporting rifle and as far as I know there is no other rifle in the world which uses this particular ammo other than the Voere. As far as balistics are concerned the Voere round is nearly identical in performance to the .223 Remington and I have not noticed any thing unusual when shooting this round other than NOTHING is ejected after a shot is fired. As you can see an extractor groove is fitted to allow an unexpended round to be ejected if need be but normally after you pull the trigger and work the bolt nothing flys out, you just chamber another round and continue. I think I may be getting the hang of this digital camera as this photo actually looks pretty good! 
Mark T. Christian0 -
thanks for the pic and the other info. so im guessing that this ammo uses a sabot right?
one shot, one kill0 -
Wrong, it is not a sabot. What you see in the photo is the bullet itself contained by the compressed propellent. A sabot is an totally different animal...and a totally different question!
Mark T. Christian0
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