jim mitchell...
or any of our other resident smokepole pros...Can you estimate the velocity of a .490 round ball with a .015 patch from a 30" barrel propelled by 90 gr. of 3F? How much of an increase do you think I'd see for every additional 10 gr. of powder and would 120 gr be a maximum load? Thanks in advance.
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WHOA PARDNER! What kind of gun are you shooting? In my .50 cal Hawkens with 32" barrels, .490 round balls, and .015 patches, 90 to 100 grains of FF are accuracy loads, and 120 of FF are maximum loads! FFF would give you almost a 50% increase in pressure over FF. The only way I'd shoot 120 grains of FFF would be with a long wire from behind a tree!
A typical .490 round ball weighs about 188 grains. A 100 grain FF charge of black should give you about 1800 fps, and about 1350 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Going to 120 grains of FF might get you to 2000 fps, but it depends on the gun, powder, patch, how efficiently it's shooting, and a number of other factors. Often with increased loads, you may just blow unburned powder out the barrel, without much increase in velocity.
Trying FFF loads in these charge weights is just asking for trouble. IMHO0 -
Thanks, Raoul. I meant 2F of course. Appreciate the information. Ballistics are more impressive than I thought. 0 -
ndbilly, sorry but just saw the post. As to powder charges, granulations, velocities, and loads; let's start with some basic data. Firts as to powders, in rifles from 50 cal down it is recomended to use 3F. As to rifles from 50 cal up it is recomended to use 2F so now you see the problem. 50 caliber smoke poles are a breaking point that can use 3F or 2F but the measures are not the same. As to loading a 50 cal with 120 grains of 3F, have done it, if rifle is in good shape it will be no problems at all but you are just wasting powder due to all of the powder not being burnt as it travels down the barrel unless it is a 40+ inch barrel. Same thing goes for 2F but both are safe although heavy loads. A man who got me into BP many, many, many moons ago once told me that you know when you load a caplock too much when it blows the hammer back to 1/2 cock as it goes off. He then suggested that you back off 5 grains and that is a max load!!! I on the other hand believe in the idea that sometimes less is more in useing BP. When deer hunting with a 50 cal caplock, my ideal load is a 490 patched ball with 60 grains of either 2 or 3F pushing it. At 100 yards, a white tail is had with that load. I generally hunt my 45 flinter with 50-60 grains of 3F and my 58 flinter smooth bore at 65 grains of either 2 or 3F as well with a .562 patched RB! I have even used 80 grains of 3F in my 75 cal Brown Bess with a patched .735 RB! Ask Pa Booger how easy my Brown Bess shot with 80 grains of 3F this past weekend. Now to get back to velocity!
I never really check velocity of my BP rifles. I find a load that works well in a particular rifle for hunting and another load for target then that is what I use. Dixie Gun Works catolog has some great velocity data in the back of it and it is well worth the $8 it costs. I have an old one running around here but have no clue where at. Go to:
http://www.dixiegunworks.com
and order a catolog. They list several books on BP velocity data in it that you can purchase as well. Bottom line IMHO is to work with different loads till you find one that is consistant with accuracy and as to loading too heavy, use you best judgement.
Raoul, I have loaded 150 grains of 2F in a 50 cal with 2 patched Round Balls one on top of the other with NO ill side effects many, many times except a sore shoulder! I have shot my friends true 75 cal Hawkins (shoots a .750 RB) with 180 grains of 3F with no ill effects except a sore shoulder and a bloody nose. Man when you shoot a .750 RB with 180 grains, it kicks like a Missouri mule!!! If a 50 cal BP rifle is put together right, it can with stand a load of 250 grains of 3F with BOTH ends of the barrel plugged and only blow out the drum! I have seen many custom builders proof test their barrels in such a manner and Dixie Gun Works shows a picture of one being done in ther catolog.
As to adding 10 grains to a 30" barrel when you are using 90 gr to begin with, you are just wasting powder IMHO because there is not enough time for all the powder to burn as the ball travels down the barrel. Personally I would drop back to 70 or so grains and check the accuracy. Here is a little test, load your rifle with 90 grains, load a patched ball, and then shoot it at a paper target at 10 yards. Check to see if you have black specks on the paper all around the hole for several inches out from the hole. If so these black specks are unburned powder! Hope this helps and good shooting.
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you.
Rita Mae Brown0 -
Thanks a bunch, Jim. I always used 2F in the .50 cal. as that seemed to be the conventional wisdom. Also, CW taught that 90 gr. was a starting load for hunting. I'll employ your suggestions when I try the rifle out next week. First cap lock for me; always shot flint. Thanks again. 0 -
SOME FURTHER THOUGHTS...
The old timers back in the pioneer days in Ken-tuc or out west in the mountains had limited resources (food, lead, powder, etc.) and carried everything they needed for extended periods of time. They didn't waste anything, and only used what was necessary. Muzzleloaders served them well, whether it was fighting Injuns, or taking game (rabbits, dear, bear, or buffalo). They didn't need the latest super ultra magnum. Accuracy was the key. One shot, one kill. Their lives and their families' lives depended on it.
Most people today who shoot traditional muzzleloaders try to recapture some of this spirit of years ago. It isn't necessary to try to turn a traditional muzzleloader into something it was never intended to be. They function perfectly well in their intended role. A traditional muzzleloader can be an extremely accurate target rifle, or it can take practically any North American game animal within a reasonable range.
Shooting a traditional muzzleloader should first of all be fun, but the numbers of people who shoot traditional muzzleloaders have been declining. We need to show new people how much fun it can be, and bring more people into the sport, or maybe someday it may not be possible to even get such things as real black powder. One of the things we must also do to bring more people into the sport is to practice safe shooting. We don't need to do anything that would give the anti-gun groups and their friends in the media anything to tarnish the image of our sport.
My experience with muzzleloaders has been primarily with percussion locks, and a little with flints. I haven't tried inlines, but may someday. I agree with Jim that with typical .50 cal percussion rifles, either ff or fff will work. A buddy of mine thinks fff works best for him in his T/C .50 cal; mine seem to work best with ff. I would add that if you have worked up a load you like in your gun in ff, but would like to try an equivalent load in fff, cut back your starting load by about 30%, e.g. from 90 grains of ff, to 60 grains of fff, and work up from there if necessary. I also agree with Jim that if a particular load blows your hammer back to the half-cock position, cut back your charge by 5 grains, and consider that to be your maximum safe load for that gun and powder combination.
I've never tried shooting a .75 cal Hawken with a .750 round ball and 180 grains of fff, but I imagine I'd agree with Jim that it would kick like a "Missouri mule". I just don't think I would want to. It's not that I'm particulary sensitive to recoil. I've got a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .300 magnum, that I enjoy shooting with hot 180 grain bullet loads. I've got several lever actions in .45/70, including both a Marlin 1895 Cow Boy and Winchester 1886 Take Down (both with steel but plates) that I enjoy shooting with hot .45/70 loads. I've also got an 1895 Winchester in .405 Win (also with a steel but plate) that I enjoy shooting. I think any of these more modern rifles would be more fun to shoot than a .75 cal Hawken with 180 grains of fff. If Jim likes that, more power to him, but I think I'll pass!
As far as Jim's comment about .50 cal barrels being proof tested with 250 grains of fff (the equivalent of about 375 grains of ff) with both ends of the barrel plugged, I would say that proof testing barrels and shooting are two completely different matters. I don't doubt what he's saying, but I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to try it! A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Sure, the drum would probably come unglued before the barrel did. What about the threads on the breech plug, or those tiny little threads on the nipple. I've never seen a nipple blown out of a drum, but I have seen tyros strip the threads off a nipple simply reinstalling a nipple with a small nipple wrench. I've also seen bulged barrels from a light charge where the ball wasn't fully seated on the powder charge. Some of these other parts could be the weak link that causes the problem. If a nipple blew out, I wouldn't want it coming back in my direction, and I also wouldn't want the drum going in someone else's direction.
Last week a buddy emailed me an article, and I'm sorry now that I deleted it. The gist of the article was about the guy who did a lot of work developing the Savage 10ML smokeless powder muzzleloader. He was doing some load development work with some Accurate Arms powder. When he increased the charge from 48 to 49 grains (apparently as he had done before), the rifle let go. Parts of the barrel went almost 100 yards in one direction, while other parts went almost that far in another. Miraculously, he wasn't hurt too bad. On the other hand, I guess he doesn't want to work on it any more. I wouldn't want something like that (or worse) to happen to somebody who misunderstands what we're talking about on here.
I'm done preaching now.
Every rifle is different, even if they're made from the same type parts. Some .50's might like 70 grains, some 90, or some others might like 100 grains of a particular ff powder. Start low and work up in 5 grain increments. See what shoots best for you. I like Jim's idea about setting up a paper target close to the muzzle to see if unburned powder impacts the target. I haven't heard that before. At any rate, look for your most accurate and consistent load. Once you get there, you don't need a hotter load. Your rifle will have enough punch to get the job done.
I've got two Lyman Great Plains rifles in .50 cal (one flint & one percussion). MY percusion usually shoots best with a .490 round ball, .015 patch, and 90 to 100 grains of ff black. At 100 yards, it will litterally blow a hole completely through a good size whitetail deer on a broadside heart/lung shot. I don't need any more than that!
I've got a custom made .36 cal squirrel rifle with 31" octagonal Green Mountain barrel with 1 in 48" twist, L&R Durs' Egg lock, and Davis trigger. With a .350 round ball, .015 patch, and 35 grains of fff, it will shoot clover leaf shaped groups at 40 to 50 yards, with enough power to make a squirrel's head explode. I could load up to 40 grains of fff and get up to around 2000 fps, but accuracy isn't quite as good.
I've got another .58 cal custom Hawken with 36" Green Mountain barrel with 1 in 70" twist, lock designed by Ron Long & assembled by Davis, and Davis Hawken trigger. With .570 round ball, .015 patch, and 100 grains of ff, on a good day it will shoot 2" groups at 100 yards. I haven't had the chance to try it yet, but there's no doubt in my mind that it would have enough punch to take an elk at reasonable ranges.
I've got other custom made Hawkens I could talk about, but the point I'm tring to make is that you don't need to push them beyond their limits. Find out what shoots best for your particular gun. Use them as they were meant to be used. Enjoy them! They've got plenty of power to get the job done. Just do it safely and sanely!0
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