What constitutes a thumbhole stock?
California law prohibits thumbhole stocks and conspicuous pistol grips.
What constitutes a thumbhole stock, if the stock has a hole in it that is much larger than one's thumb like the P 90 (http://www.civil-defence.org/english/history/p90.html), is it still a thumbhole stock, or is it then and inconspicuous pistol grip?
What constitutes a thumbhole stock, if the stock has a hole in it that is much larger than one's thumb like the P 90 (http://www.civil-defence.org/english/history/p90.html), is it still a thumbhole stock, or is it then and inconspicuous pistol grip?
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I'll go out on a limb here, as I know little about CA restrictions. But, I think that if the stock has a hole in it, & you have to stick your thumb through that hole in order to grip the handgrip, then it is a "thumb hole" stock.
You realize, of course, that this is just a fanciful exercise; guns like the P90 will never again be imported into the US.
Neal0 -
well i wasn't hoping to get a p 90, i was just trying to think of a way that a bullpup rifle could be built that is ca legal
Im from California and I strongly support our right to bear arms, I do however strongly support Gun Control-> Of course, Gun Control means using both hands0 -
The CA Department of Justice defines a thumbhole stock as "A stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock". Keep the word "INTO" in mind. Silver box and at least one other member here on GB claim that at least one bullpup rifle, the Bushmaster M17, does not fit the definition of having a pistol grip protruding below the action and are legal. Why not just go down to your local gun shop and buy three of four of these rifles? Since they are legal then they should be lining the shelves of any good CA gun store.
Mark T. Christian0 -
Let's face it. We dont have many options when it comes to centerfire semi-auto rifles here in CA. For a few hundred you can get an SKS, about $500... a Kel-Tec or the Ruger Mini's, for the big money an M1a or a Garand. Those look like the options we have here in CA, feel free to add any more you can think of or if my price quotes are off. 0 -
I may be that other member you were talking about that claims the M17 does not fit the definition of having the pistol grip protrude conspicuously beneath the action because the grip is approximatly 7 inches in front of the action. I emailed the CA DOJ on that issue and their "field rep" told me that it was their "opinion" that the rifle was not legal. I emailed BM to ask if they thought their rifle was legal. Their response was: "Our Law Enforcement Rep is overseas at this time and he would be the one to contact the California DOJ on this type of issue. He will contact the DOJ with a request to review the rifle as it is not on the banned list and it is not a Stoner design. He will be back next week. If they accept our request we will send them a rifle for review for determination under the Ban Law.
I do not know how long this process will take to get an answer but knowing how things work I would expect it to take a few weeks at least.
I will keep your address on file and let you know the results as soon as I can."
I haven't heard a response on this yet, and I think it would be risky to attempt to get one shipped to an FFL here.0 -
Thumbhole stocks and Benelli pistol gripped shotguns are a matter of such contention that I am finsihed now with both and I wish you luck with your future purchase of the M17. I will warn you however that an "opinion" issued by the DOJ does NOT have the force of law, even if it is in writing from the DOJ. ONLY the Attorney General has the power (up held by the State Supreme Court after a law suit -or two) to declare or remove firearms from the banned list by use of a RULING. Randy Rossi, who is the DOJ director of the firearms program (I remember back when he was still a field agent working firearms seminars around the state) can give out opinions all day long but when old Mr. Lockyer, the AG, says NO that is the end of the matter.
I understand that you are a fairly young fellow so perhaps you do not remember the SKS Sporter debacle from a decade ago. The first AW ban in 1989 classified SKS carbines with detachable magazines as assault weapons. A few years later the DOJ issued an opinion that commercial SKS Sporters which had either Monte Carlo or a particularaly ugly thumbhole type stock and detachable magazines were not the same rifles as the SKS carbines banned back in 1989. Many thousands of these SKS sporters were sold here in this state and the DOJ said nothing at all about any problems with these rifles...right up to the moment before the Attorney General issed a ruling classifying them as assault weapons!
Over night these rifles were banned with no way to register them since the cut off date for the registration of firearms coverd by the first ban had long since passed. End result was a program sponsored by the state to purchase these rifles from their owners because failing this the only other options were to move the rifles out of state, sell of give them to a CA firearms dealer (I had no use for them so forget it), or hand them over to a police department. Those were the only choices. Plenty of people, including wholesalers selling to dealers in CA and the importers of the rifles, had letters from the DOJ stating the rifles were legal...right up until they became illegal at the stroke of a pen. Keep that little sage in mind any time you think that you are smarter than the average bear and have found a loop hole in what are three very tough (probably the toughest) AW bans in the nation. Good luck with the M17 and post a review of the rifle when you get it because I was always less than impressed with the first generation of these Bushmaster bullpups and maybe they have inproved with age.
Mark T. Christian0 -
I agree with Mark about the Bushy Bullpup. They just do not float my boat. Not sure what it is, maybe its too heavy, too blocky, too metallic, too hot when fired, or that it just does not come to point of aim for me. Just my two cents.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed"
. and the antithesis to this philosophy was uttered by Bill Clinton "I smoked it, but I didn't inhale."[V]
NRA Life Member0 -
I got the impression that these rifles never sold that well (bullpups dont seem popular, only 1 american made bullpup rifle after all). So even if I can buy one, I don't think they'll be selling by the thousands like that SKS (I don't remember the event you speak of). I'm hoping it won't attract the AGs attention too much if they are able to be sold here.
What was wrong with the early models you tried, I've heard they often need trigger jobs. Would you recomend a SU-16 or mini-14 over them? I've always liked the bullpup concept, and the M17 does have a longer barrel(3 inches) and I've heard good things about Bushmasters quality.
I think the iron sights are poor and the picanty rail is too high, but I've seen many neat modifications of the M17 at Kurts Kustom Firearms
http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/page/page/42606.htm
My favorite custom picture of it is http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/albums/album_image/42606/23597.htm
or maybe this one http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/albums/album_image/42606/203367.htm
It looks like a good rifle to me, at least after some aftermarket work is put into it0 -
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the intellectual bankruptcy of these anti-gun laws never ceases to dumbfound me. I could sort of see the "no bayonet lug" rule. . .someone could get their eye poked out!
But who the heck cares about a thumbhole stock? Honestly, what possible difference could it make to anyone if you can stick your thumb through a hole in the stock?
By the way, is the relatively recent proliferation of thumbhole stocks was just a way of getting around the purely cosmetic ban on pistol-gripped rifles.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
-Albert Einstein0 -
"...California law prohibits thumbhole stocks..." Geezuz and I thought our laws were daft. The Lee-Enfield used in Crocodile Dundee has a thumbhole stock. 0
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