Pellet gun silencer? ATFe Compliance?!
Someone I met briefly a long time ago had created a series of baffles inside a piece of PVC pipe that fit over the barrel of his pellet rifle that didn't make any noise when he fired it.
I wonder if such a thing would be regulated, and if so; what it be's? Title 2? AOW? Bueller?!
"Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit" --OVID
I wonder if such a thing would be regulated, and if so; what it be's? Title 2? AOW? Bueller?!
"Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit" --OVID
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That's a tough call but I would imagine (I am no expert) that any device capable of muffling sound designed to fit over any barrel, be it a BB gun or pistol/rifle would indeed be a silencer and regulated by the ATF. I am no expert though. But, it is MY understanding that ANY such device, whether it's on a gun or not, be it a bb gun or rifle is regulated. 
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Hello:
Oh boy . . . did you open a can of worms. Silencers on air rifles are what I consider the Holy Grail of legal questions. I not going to quote you chapter & verse of the law, but what is really conflicting laws and the refusal of BATF to clarify the rules. Quite frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that someone hasn't sued for some sort of declaratory relief on your question. First, BATF won't regulate air rifles. You can ask them questions, and generally the response is an air rifle is NOT a firearm, therefore not regulated. Next, we have the well defined rule that silencers are illegal for the general public. I won't debate the definition of a silencer, but once you get into the capability of sound suppression your not on a slippery slope, your over the edge. There are factory suppressors for air rifles. Theoben's Evolution is beautiful suppressor built for a number of their FAC (greater than 12 FPS) rifles that are imported into this country. Legal? . . . arguably yes, if they were permanently affixed to the barrel. The Evolution, however is removable . . . Theoben even sells them as a separate accessory with updates, and they are imported into the US. The Evolution with little, or no modification can be adapted to fit a 22 caliber rifle. BATF does regulate suppressors, and there is no question that a stand alone suppressor is illegal. Your question is an often debated topic on some of the air gun forums. I've read and reread the responses given by some very knowledgeable individuals to the topic. Pro-silencer advocates claim . . . it is on a factory air rifle legally imported into this country . . . BATF does not regulate air rifles ipso facto "my air gun is legal". Silencer critics laugh at this analysis, and quote chapter and verse of the Federal Code, and administrative regs. that expressly forbid suppression devices. For piece of mind a pro-silencer owner would probably have a decent argument if prosecuted, and after some lengthy legal gyrations, would probably be looking at confiscation, not prosecution (this of course depends on the quality of legal defense, morning attitude of the Federal prosecutor for each District & Circuit, and the character of the defendant . . . good guys with cleaner hands and clean criminal records do get a break!). Have I answered your question (probably not)? Confused . . . join the crowd! Based on my research, your buddies "Someone" PVC pipe is regulated and illegal. Removable suppressors are regulated and illegal. Robert Beeman (founder of Beeman Air Rilfes) is probably the foremost authority on air rifle safety. Before his retirement, Beeman routinely imported gas-ram air rifles from Theoben. These were marketed under the RX-1, Crow Magnum, & SLR-98 names. None of these were imported with the factory suppressors that Theoben sells. Beeman has written extensively on your question, and I believe his analysis pretty much tracks what I've said above. I think Beeman even went a step farther, and claimed that no suppressor would be legal whether removable or not. Air gun rifle suppressors are in the grayest of legal areas. Yesterday, BATF could have promulgated new administrative rules for enforcement and prosecution. Want to run the legal gauntlet ? . . . Want to be a test case ? At this point no definitive answer exists, the risk is yours.
Found the Beeman site! Check it out . . . worth the read!
http://www.beemans.net/silencers_on_airguns.htm0 -
A great response by drewto.
The terrible thing about BATFE is that they don't have to cite a specific regulation that you violated in order to arrest you, bankrupt you, & turn your life upside down. They have dozens of attorneys who are on the payroll, & you have to pay an attorney $150 an hour (or more) to stay out of jail. There is no way to win a disagreement with them.
Don't forget, your first encounter with Law Enforcement will probably start with your local police. A report from your disgruntled ex, a complaint from a nosy neighbor, or a random search of your house or car
your local cops won't hesitate to detain you, & ask the feds if they want to draw & quarter you.
Questionable items should be avoided. Things that even look like questionable items should be avoided.
Neal
"Arrest now, litigate later."
BATFE motto0 -
That was a great response on Airgun silencers!
But I just have to ask, aren't airguns basically silent anyway? I've fired a couple of spring rifles, including one really high power one, and I've always thought that most of the sound comes from the action cycling rather than discharge noise from the bbl during the shot. I can't imagine that putting on an aftermarket silencer would really accomplish anything other than cause trouble!
The very last time I fired a pellet gun was at a pistol range. It was one of those Crosman .177 CO2 pistols, and wearing earmuffs, I couldn't even tell if the gun had actually fired or not! After three shots, I opened up the action and yup, there were three missing rounds.
Also, out of curiosity, are there actually any models powerful enough to be capable of supersonic projection? (if so presumeably they wouldn't be silenceable).
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
-Albert Einstein0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
That was a great response on Airgun silencers!
But I just have to ask, aren't airguns basically silent anyway? I've fired a couple of spring rifles, including one really high power one, and I've always thought that most of the sound comes from the action cycling rather than discharge noise from the bbl during the shot. I can't imagine that putting on an aftermarket silencer would really accomplish anything other than cause trouble!
The very last time I fired a pellet gun was at a pistol range. It was one of those Crosman .177 CO2 pistols, and wearing earmuffs, I couldn't even tell if the gun had actually fired or not! After three shots, I opened up the action and yup, there were three missing rounds.
Also, out of curiosity, are there actually any models powerful enough to be capable of supersonic projection? (if so presumeably they wouldn't be silenceable).
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
-Albert Einstein
There are some larger caliber models of pellet rifles (22 cal & up) capable of breaking that ".22lr threshold" as I call it. I've seen .45 caliber air rifle that was every bit as powerful as a .45acp.
These come to mind: http://www.pyramydair.com/site/manuals/bigbore/
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=378
FYI, the .45 cal air rifle fires a 142gr round ball at speeds up to 750-800fps and the .22 air rifle is adjustable: 400 FPS to 1250 FPS
And they do make a fair amount of noise.0 -
im generally not irresponsible, but i do have to admit, i do admire the idea lol. why? idk but just the fact of having it kinda amuses me. good question.
one shot, one kill0 -
I have a .20 cal air rifle that must be pumped, its basically silent, though when I start putting in 15-20+ pumps it does start making noticible noise. I live close to the south SF bay in california, in the city of milpitas(theres cattle ranches half a mile away in the hills, im sure they do whatever they want with firarms back there) and have fired over a hundred rounds across my backyard with the air rifle(almost certaintly illegal) but no one noticed the noise or saw over our fence.
BTW, with air rifles that you pump up, can bad things happen if you pump them too many times, the force builds with each pump and it seems like I'll reach a point where its too hard to pump any more before the gun gets damaged.
In case your wondering, yes I have stopped firing the airgun in my backyard, not worth the risk.
Im from California and I strongly support our right to bear arms, I do however strongly support Gun Control-> Of course, Gun Control means using both hands0 -
I am amazed that you can get over ten pumps in. I assume that the .20 cal pump rifle is a Sheridan. I would think that the only way to get that many pumps in would be if you have already damaged the seals by over pumping it. 0 -
Hmmmmm, damn, I havent used the air rifle in a long time, and now that i take it out, it doesnt appear to work well at all. Most likely that time I pumped it up 20 times (and it was quite hard to do). Now I can put one pump into it and get it to make more noise(dry firing it).But additional pumps do nothing, when i put one pump into it, it makes more noise, when i put one pump in, and then extend the forend down so the guns in an L shape, theres no pressure at all and it just makes a click sound when i dry fire it. when i go to extend the pump the pressure from the one pump pushes it out, its hard to describe, basically it will be pressurized by one pump, but when you go to pump it again, that pressure is released then put back in, last thing i knew the gun did work, wow, Im stupid, the last time i fired it was putting 20 pumps just to see if i could and to see how loud it would be. Broke it then i guess 0 -
quote:Originally posted by drewto
Hello:
Oh boy . . . did you open a can of worms. Silencers on air rifles are what I consider the Holy Grail of legal questions. I not going to quote you chapter & verse of the law, but what is really conflicting laws and the refusal of BATF to clarify the rules. Quite frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that someone hasn't sued for some sort of declaratory relief on your question. First, BATF won't regulate air rifles. You can ask them questions, and generally the response is an air rifle is NOT a firearm, therefore not regulated. Next, we have the well defined rule that silencers are illegal for the general public. I won't debate the definition of a silencer, but once you get into the capability of sound suppression your not on a slippery slope, your over the edge. There are factory suppressors for air rifles. Theoben's Evolution is beautiful suppressor built for a number of their FAC (greater than 12 FPS) rifles that are imported into this country. Legal? . . . arguably yes, if they were permanently affixed to the barrel. The Evolution, however is removable . . . Theoben even sells them as a separate accessory with updates, and they are imported into the US. The Evolution with little, or no modification can be adapted to fit a 22 caliber rifle. BATF does regulate suppressors, and there is no question that a stand alone suppressor is illegal. Your question is an often debated topic on some of the air gun forums. I've read and reread the responses given by some very knowledgeable individuals to the topic. Pro-silencer advocates claim . . . it is on a factory air rifle legally imported into this country . . . BATF does not regulate air rifles ipso facto "my air gun is legal". Silencer critics laugh at this analysis, and quote chapter and verse of the Federal Code, and administrative regs. that expressly forbid suppression devices. For piece of mind a pro-silencer owner would probably have a decent argument if prosecuted, and after some lengthy legal gyrations, would probably be looking at confiscation, not prosecution (this of course depends on the quality of legal defense, morning attitude of the Federal prosecutor for each District & Circuit, and the character of the defendant . . . good guys with cleaner hands and clean criminal records do get a break!). Have I answered your question (probably not)? Confused . . . join the crowd! Based on my research, your buddies "Someone" PVC pipe is regulated and illegal. Removable suppressors are regulated and illegal. Robert Beeman (founder of Beeman Air Rilfes) is probably the foremost authority on air rifle safety. Before his retirement, Beeman routinely imported gas-ram air rifles from Theoben. These were marketed under the RX-1, Crow Magnum, & SLR-98 names. None of these were imported with the factory suppressors that Theoben sells. Beeman has written extensively on your question, and I believe his analysis pretty much tracks what I've said above. I think Beeman even went a step farther, and claimed that no suppressor would be legal whether removable or not. Air gun rifle suppressors are in the grayest of legal areas. Yesterday, BATF could have promulgated new administrative rules for enforcement and prosecution. Want to run the legal gauntlet ? . . . Want to be a test case ? At this point no definitive answer exists, the risk is yours.
Found the Beeman site! Check it out . . . worth the read!
http://www.beemans.net/silencers_on_airguns.htm0 -
Reading the opinion referenced in the article (http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/atf_ruling2005-4.pdf) I drew two conclusions. 1.) The ATF did not consider the perminently mounted silencer a firearm. 2.) They made a very clear distinction between owning such a gun and the act of willfully removing the silencer (thus rendering the paintball gun inoperable). This is constituted "making" a firearm.
Therefore the two points fall decidely on separate sides of the legal fence. It isn't a stretch to consider an airgun in this same league. It's a matter of approaching the ATF with a design for consideration.
Interestingly, they also point out ATF Form 1, request form for approval to "make" a firearm. Perhaps an owner could get approved to make a silencer for their own airgun. There'sa $200.00 "making" tax of course.0
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