Black powder in modern weapons
Other than "Why would you want to?", is there any reason black powder could not be substituted as a propellant in modern firearms? I know of the fouling and subsequent accuracy issues (.30-30 Winchester)but, other than that, would there be any problems?
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As BP (and BP substitutes) is measured by volume and the smokless is by weight certain calibers may present case size/capacity problems when trying to work up loads that are anywhere near the velocity of modern ammo.
I've seen folks load 45 Colt, 45-70, etc. both ways, and I have some load data for using modern powder in black powder equivalent loads for some of the older guns.
If you use BP substitutes such as Pyrodex, Triple 7, etc. they typically run hotter than BP by 10% or so. Thus if you have some BP load data and want to use a substitute start approx. 10% down and work up from there.
Other than that ... clean VERY carefully !!!
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
As above, but note that with BP, there can be NO air space in the case (fillers may be required).
Also, the 30-30 & 30-40 were NEVER BP cartridges, the second number represents the amount of (the than new) smokeless powder used.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
tailgunner - I thought that the .32 Special was offered as an alternative to the .30-30 in that the former could handle black powder charges without fouling the bore as badly or as quickly as BP did with the .30-30. Incorrect? 0 -
If memory serves correctly, no referances at work, the 32spl is older than the 30-30. People back than also had a issue with "small bores" like the 30-30, prefering instead the larger diameter chunk of lead they were used to (the Spanish-Americian war (1898) era is a transition period in firearms history). The US military was still heavy with BP 45-70 single shot rifles, and only the "richest" units had the "smokeless" Krag repeaters. The Spanish with their 7x57 Mausers perty much sounded the death toll for BP cartridges worldwide.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
As Tailgunner says, I also remember bits and pieces of reading and it seems to me they offered the .32 into the new century, but marked the barrels/receivers black powder only. Part of it was to use up old stock, part was a lot of "old timers" of the day either had a bad experience (blew up gun) or didn't trust or want to convert to something they weren't used to. He is also correct in the Krag and 30-30 were both original smokeless cartridges. When they saw how it was hard to figure positions of riflemen and no accrid heavy smoke on the battlefield of the Spanish, the lights finally came on to go to smokeless. 0 -
The source of my confusion...last sentence.
Cartridges of the World - Seventh Edition. P. 67. 32 Winchester Special.
"It was originally designed as a smokeless powder cartridge that, once fired, could be reloaded with black powder. It was found that the 32 caliber and a rifling twist of 1 in 16 inches would accomplish this ideal better than the .30-30 and its rifling twist of 1 in 12 inches. The smaller bore and quick twist of the latter fouled so badly that accuracy was completely eliminated within a few rounds."0 -
Unfortunatly while COTW is a great general referance, it has a lot of errors in it. Several hardcore cartridge collectors I know have (jokenly) suggested burning Barnes at the stake over some of the errors.
Here's another thread on a similar subject, http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=743119&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1
And the pertenant portion to this discussion (C&P)
Don't know what is meant by "metal patched though"
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm
Today what is known as the .30-30 began life as the .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS. In 1891, the Winchester Repeating Arms Company first began experimenting with smokeless powder to develop a higher velocity smokeless cartridge that would bear the Winchester name. They decided on .30 caliber after working with the military on the development of the .30 U.S.Army (.30-40) cartridge.
When the 1894 Winchester rifle was on the drawing boards, they ultimately decided to use the .38-50 Ballard cartridge case of 1876, and neck it down to hold a 160 gr. .30 Caliber "metal patched" bullet.
The resultant .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS cartridge which carried the .30 W.C.F. (Winchester Center Fire) designation on the head stamp, first appeared in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. Several months prior to this, the first ads announcing the arrival of this cartridge began appearing in the sporting press.
Three months after WINCHESTER?s first advertisement of their new .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS cartridge, their biggest competitor, the Marlin Firearms Company, announced their version of this cartridge chambered in their model 1893 rifle. Since Marlin did not manufacture ammunition, it worked closely with the Union Metallic Cartridge Company (U.M.C.) located in Bridgeport, Connecticut. U.M.C. replicated the .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS cartridge but gave it a different name. Since 30 grains of smokeless powder was initially used in this cartridge, they named it the .30-30. Cartridges were head stamped U.M.C. / .30-30 S. The S was dropped from the headstamp within a few years.
The name .30-30 followed the prevailing practice of that period where the first number designated the caliber in inches and the second number the powder charge in grains, however, in this case, the second number denoted the charge in grains of smokeless powder used rather than black powder as with such cartridges as the .32-40, .38-55, .45-70, .45-90, etc.
When it was introduced in 1895, the first Winchester ammunition contained a 160gr. ?metal patched? bullet at a published 1,970 f.p.s. The 170gr. loading appeared a year later from U.M.C. but it wasn?t until 1903 when Winchester also offered the same 170 gr. loading. I guess they felt the 160 gr. bullet worked well enough!
In December of 1896, the first .30 W.C.F. ?Short Range? cartridge appeared. The cartridge illustration was shown as the .30-6-100 since the cartridge contained a 100 gr. lead bullet and 6 grains of powder. It was described as ?for small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary". It effectively gave .32-20 performance.
Winchester recognized the benefit and increased versatility that a factory loading for small game would offer, since the average family would have to sacrifice at least a month?s pay to buy just one rifle, and that one rifle was just about all that most families could afford. With his or her magazine full of these .30 W.C.F. ?Short Range? rounds, hunters could use their big game rifles to harvest turkeys, squirrels and other small game animals with no meat loss. Then, if bigger game was expected to be encountered, a quick change to the standard .30 W.C.F. cartridge would handle that situation.
A few months later, Marlin followed suit with their .30-30 MARLIN SMOKELESS ?Short Range? cartridge made by U.M.C.
In 1904, Winchester increased the lead bullet weight from 100 to 117 grs. and the following year, they also offered a 117 gr. soft point and a 117 gr. full metal patch version.
These ?Short Range? cartridges were easily identified as having a cannelure part way down the case neck. Originally, it was used to keep the soft lead bullet from being pushed into the case under spring pressure while in the magazine. It was not needed with the metal patched bullets, but was retained to distinguish them from the full power .30 W.C.F. cartridges which looked similar.
Winchester cartridges retained the .30 W.C.F. designation on their headstamps and advertising up until about 1946 after which they changed their nomenclature to .30-30. Interestingly, today it's called the .30-30 Winchester but it was Marlin & U.M.C. that gave it that designation.
Over the years, it has been known as the:
.30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS
.30 WINCHESTER
.30 W.C.F.
.30-6-100
.30 Marlin
.30-30 MARLIN SMOKELESS
.30-30 S.
.30-30 W.C.F.
.30-30 Win.
.30 American (Federal case, small primer)
DWM 543 (Germany)
7.62x51R (Europe)
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
Thanks, TG. Wonder if "metal patch(ed)" was a reference to copper jackets? Never saw the term before either. 0 -
In the early days of "smokeless" a lot of folks would try and reload spent cases w/ BP. Folks didn't have a lot of money, BP was cheap (relatively speaking) and many folks had a pretty good supply on hand.
I think what COTW may have been trying to say was that the 30-30 did not lend itself to BP reloading because of twist and bore dia. while the 32 was more accommodating of the practice.
Tying back to my original reply, it all boils down to some cartridges performing better than others loaded w/ BP.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
quote:Originally posted by ndbilly
Thanks, TG. Wonder if "metal patch(ed)" was a reference to copper jackets? Never saw the term before either.
It is. I believe it was a continuation of the terms "paper patched" & "cloth patched" IE: lead wrapped with xx material
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0
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